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6 October 2013
Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: Ards Arts Centre, Newtownards, County Down.
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: D70010
TC Start: 03:03:58:14
Q: OK so maybe Billy you could tell us where you were born and grew up?
BILLY: 03:04:24:08] Well I was born in Newtownards, County Down, late 1957, went to
primary school there, did all my schooling in Newtownards, second eldest of 6, 2 sisters
and 3 brothers. My mum and dad are still alive…. I see them…. maybe 2 or 3 times a
month [03:04:54:00].
Q: What was family life like growing up?
BILLY: [03:04:58:20] Tough. I mean there wasn't a great deal of money y'know and even
though, even though my dad had served his country in the Army, it was still difficult to
get a Housing Executive property, a council property which, you'd think at the time….
Protestants would have been top of the lists for getting properties, but it wasn't always
the case. [03:05:23:01] y'know, whether or not you’d have served your country, that
didn't seem to matter at all. [03:05:29:09]
Q: Maybe you could talk a bit about your experience of the conflict - when you first
became aware of it?
�BILLY: 03:05:41:17] I think I really first became aware, it became real, was the night I
watched all the B Specials handing in their weapons, it was on TV, the B Specials were
handing in their weapons to the local Police station. Which, that, that meant that no
longer did the B Specials have weapons, right? And later on they formed the UDR which
in effect a lot of old B Specials joined and …. to keep this Protestant thing going, being
armed [03:06:29:20] legally armed, and that didn't include me. I mean I was only a child
but my father, my father would have nothing to with them either, he just . . . he just
didn't want to know….. he was offered to join …. and he used a few choice words, which
I shan’t re-iterate here, but he was not having any of it [03:06:59:05], right ……
BILLY: [03:07:52:09] Well I first became aware that something was happening when I
saw the B Specials handing in all their weapons at the local police station, cos, I mean
everyone in the protestant community knew that the B Specials were exclusively
protestant. And supposedly the saviours of the protestant community which I never,
ever agreed with but, I mean my father was approached to join the paramilitaries and
he told them in no uncertain terms to disappear, he wasn't interested….. I used to be a
member of St John's Ambulance brigade and one evening when I was going
[03:08:46:20] to St John's, a car stopped, and I was put against the wall by 3 or 4 quite
burly persons and I was told that I had to join, and again I told them in no uncertain
terms - not a chance - that I was looking…. working towards coming a nurse therefore
being involved in such activity would stop me becoming a nurse…. I got a couple of
slaps. But then I had a word with a few people and any pressure on me stopped
completely [03:09:29:10] I was, leave him alone he's doing what he wants to do - he's
not against us y'know so….. it was accepted as such…… I mean growing up I had some
really good Catholic friends …. really close Catholic friends, myself and my friend Painty
we, I mean y'know, there was me and Painty and a group of Catholics so Painty and I
didn't …. have any problem with people of different religions especially not Catholics
[03:10:07:14] …. in fact the majority of my girlfriends throughout my life have been
Catholic for some reason (laugh) I don't know why but that’s how it’s worked out.
[03:10:22:24]
Q: What was it like being a teenager during the conflict?
BILLY: [03:10:27:19] Well... it didn't really affect me a great deal because I would go to
Portrush to the motorcycle races, I would go into Belfast every Saturday to a blues club
and listen to blues and the thing is that the blues club was mainly frequented by
Catholics …. and I never had any hassle, we just went there to have, to listen to good
music …. And, and have a few beers…. And never had any problem. [03:10:59:23]
Q: And was your family ever directly impacted …….by the conflict?
BILLY: 03:11:09:14] Well the only impact, well, my brother was blown up …. in 1979 but
he survived, and he has no hatred, he has no animosity. So I feel, well what, why should
�I have any animosity? I mean he networks with ex combatants now and he knows a lot
of ex combatants, people, that no doubt, 20 years ago he'd have been trying to
kill…..and were trying to kill him…. *03:11:53:10+ but as I say, if he can live with it ….I
don't see why more people can’t. [03:12:01:23]
Q: Could you maybe tell me the details about what happened?
BILLY: 03:12:06:15] ...That day, his unit was on its, their way to South Armagh…. and
they were coming past….Narrow Water at Warrenpoint when an explosion happened in
a hay cart…… then after the quick response team had come, and were, they were being
fired upon from across the border from the Republic over to…. onto Narrow Water
where they were ….. and when the QRF came, the Quick Reaction Force came, another
explosion went off….and ….. *03:12:56:20+ killed 2 members of another regiment who
were there at the same time so in all, all told that day there were 18 soldiers killed. The
biggest day's loss I think that the British Army had during the conflict. [03"13:16:09]
Q: And your brother survived?
BILLY: [03:13:22:06] Yes…yes.. I mean he lost close friends obviously, I mean …….
people he had joined the Army with at 16 so y'know, at that age friendships grow pretty
close, especially under the, the circumstances of all…. going for the same thing within
the military, so they forge close friendships….. *03:13:48:10+…… I myself was on duty……
in a different regiment that day so I didn't actually hear about him being blown up until
about 10 o’clock that night …. and needless to say I was, I was a bit upset, and I went to
see my company Sergeant Major, and I, I was visibly upset, I mean he told me to sit
down and cry if I had to cry - which I did……. and he sent me to the armoury to pick up a
weapon…… and got me taken to Royal Victoria Military Hospital, or Musgrave Park
Military Hospital …. and the corporal wasn't going to let me into intensive care
[03:14:40:09] and I threw a bit of a hissy fit, and let him know that I wasn't any stranger
to working in sterile….. active…..y'know sterile areas, so he gowned me up and I went
in to see him…… and, and the very first words he said to me was 'Billy, they got us really
well' *03:15:08:08+ ….and that's….. that will forever be with me …… that he, even at that
early stage, he didn't have hatred…. although he was in shock, he was more impressed
with the way they had got them….. yeah so…… Margaret Thatcher couldn't get into to
see the person I saw! [03:15:35:16]
Q: And did she want to?
BILLY: 03:15:37:00] Oh yes she tried to, but they wouldn't let her in, they just wouldn't
let her in ……. so this little man here has done something Margaret Thatcher couldn't
do! [03:15:48:00]
Q: And was there anybody else you knew growing up, involved in the conflict?
�BILLY: 03:15:53:05+ ……… I knew a guy from Newtownards who was a policeman who
was killed at Downpatrick ….. again terrorist activity, I knew a guy from Holywood who
used to sleep in a car in Newtownards, he was homeless, and he joined the Royal Army
Air Corps and he was killed as a result of terrorist activity ….. as far as it goes there are
other people I know of but I don't really want to talk about them….*03:16:36:05+ cos I
don't think it’s appropriate .
Q: And then, what happened after that when you hit your 20's?
BILLY: 03:16:46:14+ Well…… I really couldn't wait to get out of Northern Ireland because
although I came from a Protestant, Unionist background, something inside me told me
that that’s not all I was….. so when, when I came to England ….. it gave me license to
become more Irish, if you know what I mean…… I mean I, I could go to pubs and sing
what I considered to be Irish folk tunes, which were frowned upon ….by protestants in
the North of Ireland which I couldn't …… I couldn't understand, I thought it was….
y'know ….. they, they frowned on you singing Dubliners songs purely because they were
Dubliners songs [03:17:45:05+ not necessarily rebel songs…. but they were still frowned
upon …. so my soiree in England (laugh) I mean I did psychiatric nursing when I was
there and I was glad to do that because again I met a vast array of people…… some of
them I liked and some I didn't (laugh) but there was always….*03:18:09:08+ you'd always
find one person who'd be picking away because I was Irish - be picking away trying to
get me to let my barriers down, Oh Gerry Adams this, Gerry Adams that, and I
personally didn't like the man and because even though I was a socialist and I didn't like
him…. this English guy that I knew thought this was terrible that I should support Gerry
Adams because I was a socialist and I tried to explain to the guy that there’s a lot more
than just being a socialist, than liking Gerry Adams - in his case it might have been so but
in my case, with my background, I couldn't, I didn't, I still don't like him [03:18:52:04] ….
I think he has a lot of things to answer for… as, no doubt, there are protestant politicians
in power now that still have things to answer for… but as I say, with the situation in
Northern Ireland now it seems anybody's game…. That anybody's game to be a
politician, regardless of what they have committed in the past…… which I think is
wrong……… right…… *03:19:24:11+*microphone adjustment+
Q: I was just thinking, what was it like to be Irish in England during that period?
BILLY: [03:19:51:00] I mean…… obviously ….. I mean in the 70's and in the early 80's……
there were a lot of atrocities, in England, that were caused by Irishmen ….. I felt a little
bit of angst from other people, but much less angst than I would have felt had I been in
Northern Ireland….. y'know [03:20:25:04] and, and the very fact that I had an Army
number, I'd been in the Army - helped a great deal – cos if I got into any….. if the police
started on me or whatever, I just give them my Army number and tell them to ring and
find out who I was - and it happened on a few occasions, and they came back and said
sorry for bothering you, sorry for bothering you, but….*03:20:47:08+ I suppose once
you're…… once you are classed as an Irishman - I mean it’s what you are….. especially
�in… in the dark days when there was so much violence in England…. I mean I had my
door knocked at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning on a few occasions because something
had happened in London or you know, but not often, not often. [03:21:18:05]
Q: And then when you moved back to Ards, did you come back with a different
perspective?
BILLY: [03:21:27:15] Completely …. when I came back to live in Northern Ireland, I felt
like a fish out of water…… but by that time …even….. even at that time there were a
couple of pubs I could go to and sing the songs that I wanted to sing….. things had
less….lessened a bit *03:21:56:06+ but….. then again there were more explosions in
Newtownards, and things…… I mean things are still the same ….I mean although there's
not as much activity as there was ….. the estates are still governed….. by…..illegal
organizations, by, by the UVF, by the UDA…. *03:22:23:21+ …. I don't have any
experience of the Catholic estates but… I know from what I hear that they’re still
governed by the IRA …..and by illegal organizations, it’s, because the working class
people - they really don't have a say……that if you're…. if you're unfortunate enough to
live in an estate, you're bound by what that estate says [03:22:52:03] I mean I, I
couldn't …. there are lots of activities I can't take part in, in my estate because it is ….it's
a UVF estate and it will always be a UVF estate - I mean as far as I can see in the future I don't see things changing that much. [03:23:10:19]
Q: And how do they control the estate?
BILLY: [03:23:15:15] Well they police the estate themselves, you don't ring the police,
you don't ring the police, you... go and speak to someone higher up the totem pole and
then it supposedly gets sorted. [03:23:35:16]
Q: And you don't see that changing?
BILLY: [03:23:40:20] Not that I can see, no, no, it, it’s been too long, I mean once the
estates go up…..once the estates go up then a body takes over the security of the
estate…..and it doesn't matter what estate you go to, you'll see murals and they will
largely say who is in charge in that estate. [03:24:10:03]
Q: Anything else? What you didn't, or wasn't clear was that you were in the Army… it
was referred to … it’s going to take generations to exorcise all of the hatred - that’s
fundamentally what it is…. and I just wonder what you think?
BILLY: [03:24:51:16] You see I don't know… I don't have any hatred, I don't have any
hatred….. because personally I wasn't injured, right….not … it’s just my brother and if my
brother can forgive……. I'm not in any position to disagree with him…. or to do
differently….. because it wasn't my life on the line - it was his - and he survived.
[03:25:23:14]
�Q: Have you witnessed or heard of other hatreds?
BILLY: [03:25:28:06] I know people, and I've had a drink with people who ……even to
this day, just do not like Catholics - they're an anathema completely, but they know
where I stand – and if they want to spend time in my company that’s just it, they don't
start talking about…… things that I disagree with……. Or, or things that are contentious there’s no point cos it only brings up memories, brings up things that are best left to
sleep *03:26:11:18+ ….and the, the thing, the thing about Northern Ireland is people's
memories are too long y'know…. I mean there were dark days, there were dark days for
both communities …and both…. there were dark days caused by both communities and
until….. until they both come to grips with the point that they both have points to
answer, they both have….. they have points to answer ….. it’s like the matter…. don't
pee in my back door - do it in someone else's - NIMBY's, not mine, but they all have their
own demons to answer *03:26:59:13+ …… and a lot of them …. y'know a lot of them are
being answered but no doubt …… until we can….. until we can get to the point where
grandfathers aren't going and attacking the police …..on lines…. at a demonstration,
because if the …if the children and the grandchildren see the grandfather going and
doing things like that it just gives a red light…. a green light just continue behaving like
that *03:27:30:19+ ….. it’s got to start with those that were involved, teaching the ones
that are now coming up behind that it’s not a good thing to be involved - that the only
way we are ever going to have any semblance of peace and normality living together, is
if we accept each other’s differences, and celebrate each other's differences if needs be.
[03:27:53:18]
Q: And what do you think about the 12th?
BILLY: *03:27:57:17+ It’s a nice wee festival, but that’s it, I, I no longer have any faith in
Orangism per se, it’s OK y'know….. it’s an old institution…. but…. again I think that it… it
may have outlived its usefulness……I think. *03:28:25:17+
Q: And Billy are your moderate views reflective of a minority or majority?
BILLY: [03:28:51:12] I think that the people, I think …intelligent people…….people who
realize the situation, being moderate is on the increase, but at the very start there was
only a minority that started the Trouble - on both sides - and as long as there is that
unrest among minorities, who knows what tomorrow can bring? y'know, it doesn't
take……. it doesn't take a whole lot of people to start a revolution…. y'know ……
revolution for good or bad, it, it’s unimportant …..I mean Hitler was only one man and I
rest my case on that one. [03:29:46:13]
END IV [03:29:52:19]
�Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: 30 November 2014, Leinster Cricket Club
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
TC: 00:28:15:24
Q: Okay I’m good to record, turn off my phone, you okay?
BILLY: Yeah.
Q: When you went up to Sligo, what did Freda tell you were in for?
BILLY: Well she said I’d be playing a few games, you know theatre games and being silly,
and just allowing myself to be silly, to get to the, to make other people comfortable so
they would be in a position where they would be willing to tell their stories.
Q: Are you happy to play games in public?
BILLY: Provided it’s closed public, I, I wouldn’t be happy in the street doing games like
that but within the confines of the room, yes.
Q: So you didn’t find it awkward or sort of nerve wracking to go in?
BILLY: No, I had already played some games, theatre games before that anyway so I
was au fait with what was going to happen.
Q: Well even before you did those, I mean did you . . ?
BILLY: Well yes, I had done some things with Idan before, before we went to Sligo.
Q: I’m trying to get to the sense of someone coming into it for the first time, especially a
man. . would probably not, it wouldn’t necessarily be as easy, certainly from what I’ve
seen, women seem to find it easier.
BILLY: Well I think that may be true but, I, I think that you have to being willing to let
yourself, I mean there’s no point coming in to play these games if you’re going to have
something to say ‘oh no I’m too embarrassed, no I’m too embarrassed’, you have to put
yourself out on a limb in order to get the best from you, and allow yourself to be
�directed and have total trust, even running about with your eyes closed, so you have to
trust who is running the game.
Q: And how do you feel the games made you feel when you were doing it?
BILLY: I enjoyed the games in Sligo but what I enjoyed more than that was the reaction
of the older ladies, it was, I was quite impressed with the way they quickly settled down
and then were able and willing to tell their stories, which was really what we were after.
Q: And how did you feel about telling stories in front of strangers essentially?
BILLY: Well I mean it’s a story that has to be told, and if people like myself, and people
who remember it don’t tell it then it’ll never be told, so it’s important that we’re willing
to give of ourselves.
Q: Have you seen any reason to believe that not telling it is a problem?
BILLY: Me, reasons as a problem, no I don’t get any, I don’t have any problem with it, I
think perhaps some of the people where I live might have a problem but I know there
are a few people that are well aware of what I do in these theatre workshops because I
tell them why we’re doing it and what we’re doing and the majority of people just are
quite happy enough, y’know where I come from which is predominantly Protestant I
have had no problem with people being aggressive or anti. .
Q: What do you feel is being achieved through the workshops for yourself?
BILLY: For myself? Well I think it gives me a greater sense of perspective because I know
my story, which is probably an army related family story, but to hear the complete
opposite, the complete opposite stories to what I would be telling, from supposedly the
other side, I find that extremely interesting to see the hurt and damage and the scars
that other people have, because of some people on my supposed side of the argument
have behaved.
Q: Do you think it’s doing any good?
BILLY: Slowly. But I think it, it won’t come to fruition until we have the generation
following, that, they will get a understanding of what it was like, not just for their side
but for the other side, and have a little piece of empathy for how the other, the other
people felt, regardless of how you feel about their reasons, just on a humanitarian side
of ‘this is how this man felt, how this woman felt’, I think until they understand that, the
process will not move forward.
Q: Do you have any sort of sense of where Northern Ireland is going right now?
�BILLY: Ah. That’s a big question.
Q: I’m sorry, I, just there is a sense that Northern Ireland is not an entity in this, it’s
something that . . . people come in and talk a little bit about, I’m just curious that you’ve
had a large involvement in it.
BILLY: Yes.
Q: How do you feel, is it still today dangerous, do you feel?
BILLY: Yes. Of course, there are certain parts of the North I wouldn’t go to purely
because my face wouldn’t fit, or my accent, they would catch onto my accent and I
would be persona non grata. And that’s regardless, before they know what I am; the
way I speak would immediately, he’s Anglified, you know, so it wouldn’t go down well in
some quarters.
Q: So is there still a sense of fear in the North?
BILLY: Yes, very much so. I think that the organizations that were there during the
Troubles are still there, and they still have influence. All you’ve got to do is look at the
politicians, they, y’know they don’t leave the past behind them, they say that they’re
trying to improve things, but, I’m at a loss for the politicians in the North, I don’t think
that there’s a reasonable one among them.
Q: But if you’re saying the past. . leaving behind, surely this raising of stories is just
bringing up the past?
BILLY: Yes but you have to bring it up, you have to look at the old injury in order to heal
the old injury and there are injuries on both sides of, of the divide that, until they’re
looked at, they can never be healed.
Q: Thank you very much.
BILLY: You’re very welcome.
Q: Lovely, well spoken.
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
William Caughey
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with William Caughey
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by William Caughey (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
31 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3456
Memory Project
Smashing Times