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21 September 2013
Interview with:
Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk, Community Drama Practitioners,
Venue: The Hub, Cookstown, County Tryone
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: 010159
TC Start: 02:50:20:16
Q: So Carol and Tony how are you?
CAROL: We're grand.
Q: You did this workshop today? Carol how was that?
CAROL: (laugh) Exhausting! I don't think I was ever in a workshop like it in my life ever
that...that moved everybody y’know till, I suppose opening up, [02:50:50:07] I was
gonna say tears but it was all opening up, it was unbelievable and I, I knew everybody in
the group which was even more strange because things was happening that I thought
oh my God but I knew it was good for whatever reason they were crying and, it was
unbelievable. I'm exhausted actually [02:50:59:09], knackered!
Q: Good! (all laugh) you'll enjoy your sleep tonight?
CAROL: Aye not need a'rockin! [20:51:06:22]
Q: So you are a Catholic and a Protestant and you are married?
CAROL: No (points) Catholic and (points to herself) and Protestant, you went round the
wrong road there ha! [02:51:17:18]
�Q: And did you ever think when you were growing up that you would marry a catholic?
CAROL: [02:51:23:07] Not a mission….there wasn't a chance in hell that I'd be marrying
a Catholic, not growing up in the family that I grew up in, not that..we weren't a very
bitter family but we were Church of Ireland - staunch Church of Ireland, my father's an
Orangeman [02:51:37:11] and Black Chaptery so Catholic didn't come into it. He never
told us not to marry a Catholic, or he never told us to keep away from them but it was
about. It was just there was an aura everywhere. Like, we lived in a, in a small town,
94% Catholic so we were the 6% Protestants, my Mum and Dad still live in that wee
town.[02:52:03:07] But it was just about, and I mean I knew at a tiny tiny age that we
were different than the most of the people in our town. I remember an old Barber one
time, and Mommy had a blind Uncle and I used to walk him up - he used to put his hand
on my shoulder [02:52:19:17] up to the Blind Barber's , and we had moved house and
the old man knew this and he said 'oh this is miss Dewey and you've moved down
house’ and I said 'yeah we've moved down' and he says 'you'll play with Brendan
Quinn's children? I was only a tot at the time and I says 'we're not allowed to play with
Catholics' *02:52:36:05+ ….my mother nearly kilt me that night and my Uncle beat me
the whole way down the road. That didn't come from my parents, so somewhere along
the line I had picked this up that y’know there was Catholics across the road and we
weren't allowed to pick them, or play with them. [02:52:49:13]. So.
Q: And Tony, your experience then, I mean would you have felt the same growing up in
reverse if you like? That you would never have seen yourself marrying a Protestant?
TONY: [02:53:02:02]Not exactly, I wouldn't have been, my mind wasn't closed to
marrying any particular faith or whatever but we knew that we weren't exactly popular
with some of the Protestant people, that our type was different, and we move in
different circles and……it was only probably later in life that I got to meet more and
more Protestant people, cos the tension had gone out, slowly got of the thing…as you
got older as well. [02:53:27:08] I worked in a 95% Protestant factory at one stage and I
just enjoyed the…as if you moved to a new country where there’s all these new people
(laughter in B/G) they were same colour but they were different people. And it was like
you get bored of your own type and you got this new people and you saw the Queen's
picture in the…in the workshop wall *02:53:48:20+ and you said ah curious - might as
well have been a Muslim or a Jewish y’know God or demigod on the wall but it…there
was wee pockets of that there in the factory because it was 95% of the one (Carol off
camera) must get one and hang it up in our house! (Tony) and eh…I never felt any
y’know antipathy towards the thing, I just was, sympathy and sometimes y’know
incredulous like my God ! [02:54:16:04] y’know not at what they believed or what they
did… but I just thought sometimes a bit petty or….sometimes it was a bit over the top
sometimes y'know (Carol off camera) us? (pull back to 2S and laughter) I just realized he
was talking about us (Tony) I realize now that was probably an expression of their, the
feeling of probably… isolation in a way or…like the barriers up towards the rest of the
�world who might have thought y'know, it was like….someone on their back that they
had to protest at all times to keep their, their place where it was y'know [02:54:47:01]
Q: So this must have come from your upbringing, your family?
TONY: [02:54:50:11] Yeah you didn’t, as Carol said, you didn't…you heard it bit by bit ,
slowly incrementally you got the feeling that…you knew you moved in different circles
[02:55:00:10] you didn't go to the same church, you didn't go to the same school, and
you didn't play the same sports…as you get to work and go out among the working
population, you began to sort of…melt into the wider population instead of just being in
your own circles y'know. [02:55:18:15]
Q: So is it fair to say that the divisions are more obvious when you are growing up, when
you are younger and yet when you get older there's a bit more migration or cross
migration if you like? Carol?
CAROL: [02:55:29:22]Yeah ….um….probably, I just, I mean we married late in life, over
40 and that was the instigation of my first play, I wrote about people over 40 meeting,
of different religions and still afraid to tell their parents, cos that was the truth
[02:55:48:21] y'know I said oh Jesus how am I going to say catholic, he's a catholic or
…y’know so that was still….but when you said there, I can’t… (to Tony) you said about
us? what did you say about 'us' um….that we were just shouting or something to keep
ourselves whatever…I remember it’s true cos there was a, a strike years ago like a UDA
strike I think they called it and….we turned off Ballylumford.[02:56:10:19] I didn't know
that Protestants turned it off, I just knew that electric went out, but I felt very powerful
because ….(winks) *02:56:17:06+
Q: You'll have to explain that to me what does that mean?
TONY: Power station. CAROL: Ballylumford is a big power station [02:56:19:04] that all
the electric in Northern Ireland sorry but…I remember when y’know the …whispers you
hear - Ballylumford's been turned off and there was a sense of excitement and I
remember coming down over the back fields and Mommy had a wee stove going with
mushrooms in it and I thought Jesus we turned that off y'know…so we did ..we were
non politically minded in our house, and we were brought up that way, but there was a
sense that - it was us that turned it off not them (laugh) y'know it will be us that turns it
on again, y'know and it’s ridiculous now [02:56:46:17] cos there's no, not a sectarian
bone in my body, but then…y'know I turned the lights off …more power to you!!
[02:56:54:11]
Q: What was the town you grew up in?
CAROL: [02:56:55:14] Stewartstown.
�Q: OK, one of the things that strikes me as well, is that you are constantly reminded of
those divisions if you like because of all the iconography, you know the flags and all that
sort of stuff I notice you throw your eyes to heaven there I mean - is that an irritation at
this stage?
TONY: [02:57:16:07] Yes big irritation, I just ignore to some degree but sometimes I just
come face to face with it or you know have a fresh look at it and you say,…y'know when
you see something every day and you pass no remarks, but then some day you're
contemplating – maybe in a different place and a different time, different type of
situation and you see these things and you say….they’re still here like…why? Is it to
reinforce something that we already know? We don't have to be reminded - we know all
these things it’s not…*02:57:44:06+ …it’s perpetuating something that doesn't need
perpetuating to me but (shrugs) .
CAROL: [02:57:48:22] When Tony moved in to our house I lived in a predominantly
Protestant estate…..would it be 100%? Except you? (Tony) 99%(Carol) 99.9 when Tony
moved in [02:57:59:13] but….I suppose the first year he moved in ..it was like….a sort of
a, y'know coming up to June you thought July is nearly here y'know what’ll he think of
the flags flapping but they went up regardless y’know, and me and my daughter Patsy
we used to feel sorry for him, we'd think oh God I wonder does he… and then we'd ask
him and he says they don't annoy me, but we felt bad that he had to drive and every
house, except ours, had a, had a flag up y'know[02:58:25:08+ but I don't know…
Q: So just looking at the bigger picture if you like, this is part of what’s called the
Memory Project and so part of it is, if you like, telling the stories of the memorable
things that happened and some of them were obviously atrocious, did any of those
atrocities affect your lives directly or indirectly?
CAROL: [02:58:46:16] My sister got married on….I can't even remember the month, but
I remember I was icing her wedding cake, so I was getting a life over at 8 o'clock
one..say Monday morning, by a fella who worked in Dungannon and he picked me up at
8 O'Clock and he was driving a Volkswagen car and we were heading down towards
Cookstown Police barracks and this noise, to me it was like somebody was tapping on
the roof of the car, or the bonnet of the car - sounded like a tin noise like pat, pat, pat,
pat, pat – and he says turn down the radio, it must be something on the car , and he
turned the radio down but as we were still driving, or he was still driving and I was in the
front seat [02:59:27:10] there was a maroon HiAce van outside the barracks with the
door opened and I could clearly see a gunman sitting on his side shooting and he shot a
policeman… [02:59:42:02] and by the time we realized anything had happened he pulled
up the, he pulled on the handbrake of the car and I jumped out and I lay on my stomach,
and he jumped out, but he had to get back in again cos he forgot to put the handbrake
of the car on - it was flying on down! - so he got back in again but I remember screaming
really, really loudly because …. I knew then it was gunshots, I knew there was shooting
�going on cos I heard someone shouting 'get an ambulance he's dead' [03:00:08:03] but
the gunshots got louder which scared the living …I just thought my God they are coming
up this way how am I going to get out of here but seemingly we learned later on that it
was the police shot back and they had no silencers on or..I have no ..never wanted to
enquire about it but…the first shooting sounded like tap, tap, tap, tap and the next
shooting got louder so I was scared *03:00:28:00+ and….everybody was that shocked on
that part of the street that we were allowed to get back into our car and drive straight
past….the dead man…lying in the barracks…. we never spoke, this fella, very good friend
of mine, and he just stopped in Stewartstown in the square, he didn't even take me
down home…I could hardly walk down the hill because I wanted to be so sick cos I
remember …I seen y’know like 4 or 5 red dots in this man's ,cos it was a pale green shirt
they used to wear, surprised that I remember that – but it was pale green , and I
remember *03:01:05:24+ …going down the hill and opening the door and I says’ Daddy'
before I spoke Daddy said there's been a Policeman injured in Cookstown and I said
'Daddy he's dead' - no he's not the news said he's injured - I said Daddy I swear he's
dead - I saw him - they thought I was not wise [03:01:19:15] but I came in and I said I
promise I drove past that - and I remember shaking - the wedding cake never was iced
that day cos my hands couldn't steady til get it done. But that’s the only thing I believe
that I ever saw. But it was just…do you know this…I know it annoyed me but it was so
…unbelievable that I never thought about it again until somebody like you would say to
me can you remember anything and I'll tell you the story [03:01:47:02] but apart from
that it goes way out of my head cos its…
Q: That’s probably the way you dealt with it?
CAROL: *03:01:51:22+ I just…never and I never…..I'm a great story teller, I mean I'm a
marvelous story teller, I exaggerate and put…but that was one thing I never ,ever,
touched on. Couldn’t …not that I thought oh don't go there, I just forgot about it , just
….in my head *03:02:07:00+
Q: And Tony?
TONY: 03:02:11:16] Thankfully nothing directly affected me, or my family,…some of my
relatives were in very…..similar circumstances to Carol but really it never impinged on
my life but …I think it was almost surreal in, in some respects - some of the things you
heard about or some things you may have seen or you might have heard a bomb in the
distance or heard of something or something local - the postman was shot 2 miles away
and you are sort of shocked inside but *03:02:43:07+ …nothing you could do only take a
deep breath and hope there was no repercussions and ..try and carry on as normal so…it
was almost like another….another world existed outside your own, you sort of kept to
your own protected world and hoped the other would go away eventually and, or that
wouldn't impinge on your own life y'know [03:03:03:15]…but we didn't have any real
… contact with…or major contact with the Troubles …thank goodness. only I remember
me father saying to us when we were teenagers … if any of you boys - we were mostly
�boys - get involved with anything you'll not be coming, you’ll not be coming through the
back door - it'll be locked and you'll be staying out and that’s it …so we were warned to
keep well clear of any organizations or but I don’t think we were ever inclined to anyway
so….we never had any real…unless you really went looking for it ..you might not have
got involved y’know, I mean…or it came to you maybe - it come to some people
[03:03:40:14] by accident but it never came to our house thank goodness.03:03:44:10]
Q: You must look back now on that with a certain amount of relief? And respect for your
father in a way?
TONY: [03:03:52:11] Yeah ..I don't know why he said that but I think it was….I don't
know why….maybe he had….maybe he was just afraid …maybe that was it maybe…
maybe it happened to some other family he knew or something like that there - he was
just afraid so he …just in case he warned us y'know…I don't think he believed we really
would be as easy led into something like that but you never know now like - it can come
to you by …by default if it visits on your brother and then y'know and you feel bad about
it then you take revenge and that’s the way it happened in some families, and then the
whole family became involved in one way or another or at least sympathize but thank
God it never touched us at all….*03:04:30:04+so….I'm glad in a way yes he did but….
Q: And then I suppose this backdrop, this wider backdrop…you said already that the last
thing on your mind, ever, was to have married someone from….you mentioned …us and
them…from them if you like but that did happen so how did that come about? How did
you meet?
CAROL: [03:04:54:23+ Drama …yeah…drama group …. I was divorced and I had, I had a
child …and he was attached to his mother's apron strings (laugh off cam) (Tony) that's
debatable actually but..(laugh) for another time..(Carol) no it was through drama, we
met through drama absolutely …..(Tony) rehearsals and learning lines and (Carol) he
was in the same piece as me and he used to say I'll come up to your house and learn my
lines cos its quieter (Carol looks over to Tony) if I knowed now what I knew then…(laugh)
*03:05:29:00+ only joking…aye it was through drama..but we, we sorta ,… we did keep it
quiet (Tony) we were a bit cagey for a while (Carol) I mean we were over 40 for
goodness sake you know so I'm sure …we're married 10 years so that’s only 10 years ago
so I'm sure today there's still some people who think Oh can't say that what am I going
say y'know….don't know how we broke it to them… we didn't break it really cos I used
to say this is Tony from drama, Mommy, Tony from drama…we're going to drama and going to a drama weekend….that was going on for years y'know - drama weekend yeah
ha..drama weekend - whose that? Tony from the drama weekend (laugh) just lied our
way through it [03:06:08:13] what did you tell them I was? (Tony) …in the drama
group… (Carol) did you? ah see that ? I knew (laugh) (Tony) common denominator - I
think that’s what people do need is common denominators in their lives to, to break
barriers [03:06:24:24]
�Q: That’s exactly it, that’s the point isn't it? Here's a drama group that allows people
from all denominations to get together and it doesn't really matter does it?
TONY: [03:06:36:24] I don't think it mattered to us as much as to what we thought that
other people would think about it and as a one to one if we were the only 2 people on
the island it wouldn't have mattered to us but because of the pressures around it
mattered a bit that we weren't from the same background.[03:06:50:22](Carol) it was
only my parents, like I didn't give a hoot what anybody else …none of my family ..I
didn’t, it didn't bother me, it was just my parents, and do you remember the night we
decided to tell them? (laugh) I swear to god, we got engaged - we didn't tell anybody
you see, so we come home with this ring and we're oh fuck what are we going to do?
Are you going to say or am I going to say?*03:07:05:09+ so he says…Tony's very sensible,
he's not like me, so right we'll pick a night and we're going to tell them so we…we were
up on our computer and I'm going out now to tell my father and then I'll tell my mother
and you..and I said I don't think I'll go I'll just phone them and he says well as long as you
tell them. So the minute he went I phoned me sister, would you do me a big favor?
(laugh) I wouldn't even tell them, I got her to tell my parents and I felt really sneaky
because I knew he was gone out with his guts churning to tell them ones you know and I
thought my god he's to face all that there and I didn't do anything at all, so I was really
sneaky and I thought I can't face that negativity if it’s going to happen, y’know or
whatever [03:07:44:11] but
Q: So what was the reaction then?
TONY: [03:07:46:15] Mine was the y’know the Father and son - you know the
conversations, not face to face but y’know huhuh and….washing the dishes and this
person like (looking thoughtful) right well the day and…and all this …and what time is it
and…just before I go I want to say …tell you this here when you're not looking at me so
don't have to face to face..no eyeball please, this here (laughter) you know that sort of
uncomfortable sort of …then there was silence ….and…then ah don't know what…what
your mother would think about that …(laugh) (Carol) and us 40! (Tony) so he was more
or less transporting that …moving on to somebody else's responsibility to give an
opinion on it - he wasn't too sure himself but…he was really thinking about what other
people would think as well really I think but [03:08:35:02] that was the last mention of it
as a problem or even a topic of discussion really.
Q: And for you? What was your mother's thoughts?
CAROL: [03:08:41:11] You see I think….my mother would have…my mother has a
wonderful imagination, everything to mum, if she'd had heard a rumor before she was
told, it would be oh there’ll be killing there’ll be a murder…mommy…there was no
middle ground or no…there could be peace ..it would have been just absolutely….but it
was my father that I was afraid of cos I thought my god I've lost his respect now and …I
was devastated and I thought …cos I could handle mommy better but if Daddy had of
�said anything negative I don't know….I think I still would have married ye (to Tony) but
(Tony) that’s very good (Carol) but I think, I think, I think…I don't know, it would hurt me
more if Daddy had of said oh that can't be happening but ….I got a better reception
…y'know I thought they would say oh she's a lovely girl so we were all mixed up there so
I …my Dad said *03:09:32:10+…because…but I …done a lot of things in the house
and…and….I just, I’m a, I'm a people person so my father had thought God, there’s, I'm
doing things with people, she’s very…but Daddy would never say she was good but I
knew he enjoyed what I was doing so…probably this was what softened the blow, the
things that I was doing in the community , he said …well she's old enough now to know
her own mind and as long as he looks after the child and he’s good to her that's it…and
when they phoned me I thought oh thanks be to god I don't have to…hah…y'know
..didn't fear meeting them the next time round y'know… mommy probably took a dose
of shaking and y’know threw a couple of valium into her and all that craic there but…she
probably did y'know..and whatever..but… [03:10:16:12]
Q. But no mention of the fact that he’s a ‘bloody Catholic’?
CAROL: [03:10:19:22] No, never said ….and we had to, we had to actually…wind our
wedding around that too didn't we?(Tony) yeah..you have to be sort of diplomatic and
sort of sensitive to the peoples y'know. (Carol) we've a vicar in our church who, who
knew we were getting married and he must have made 45 phone calls to me, he says
'Carol I'll open any church or any chapel, in Ireland, I've the keys, I'm able to get the keys
of any church..to make it that there's a priest and a church of Ireland minister
there…and I said no…I don't want that, Tony says to me I don't want a priest, y'know at
our wedding and I said would you mind if there's a church of Ireland ..I don't care he
says church of Ireland ok but I'm not a practicing catholic so I don't want a priest
*03:11:05:05+ so I …this man …but I think it was….y'know that transition period between
the blowing up and then everybody wants to be huggy kissey and trees and roots and all
that craic there, so he wanted us to have this …but it was like a feather in their cap…if
we… marry these two and there's a priest and a minister we'll tell the pope look what
we've done…y'know and that made me really cross I think *03:11:27:04+
Q : It’s more about them than about you?
Carol: And I thought (Tony) hmmmm (Carol) remember the night we were drying dishes
and it was him again - let me talk to him…and I couldn't ..y'know…he actually said to me
'is it about your mother and father? Cos if it is I'll speak to them'…I was infuriated that
they really wanted us to have a mixed wedding when we didn't ….*03:11:47:04+ and I…if
Tony had of said to me that I want the priest to marry us, the priest would have married
us - that wouldn't have bothered me , not in the slightest ….but…it would have been in a
cave …nobody would have knew about it but….(laugh)…(looks to Tony) no I would
have… but we slipped away one morning at 7 o'clock, nobody knew, we didn't tell
anybody…went down the road…went to what do you call it? The city hall, lifted up our
Banns, is it the marriage banns you call them? …we drove across …we couldn't find the
�church cos there was that much barbed wire in it …the peace wall, beside the peace
wall…*03:12:20:15+ and …what do you call the road? field…something field…. we hadn't
even witnesses and the minister was there Paul Toomey and Paul said have you no
witnesses? And we said no, did we need any? So we nipped into the school next door
and got 2 people out, they were shaking - we just couldn't wait, we thought this is
brilliant look 15 mins here and back down the road and we're married - no big fuss …we
done that..and then we had our reception in Lusty Beg Island …we borrowed
videos,….photographers, priests, ministers,…..and fancy clothes because we thought
we'd strip them down to neutrality and they'll be absolutely…*03:13:02:12+ …we
organized the wedding. Then…y’know we sent them an invitation and we said 'you're
going across in a boat, if there are any problems throw them into the water or don't
come across y'know?…em..(Tony) we were setting the place mats and the place …the
place on the table on the morning of the wedding..we …were control freaks, not in a
bad way - we enjoyed that - we didn't want it to be..we wanted it to be comfortable for
everybody, so we actually organized the wedding like hands on like wedding planners
ourselves [03:13:28:11] and we were there a day before if not 2 days before on the
island and then people came to us - in a way it being on an island meant that everybody
came and were brought into neutral space in a way y’know cos nobody…they were all
out of their local environment anyway so that was good in a way…I think that was part
of the idea too?[03:13:43:17]
Q: And had the future in-laws met each other?
CAROL: [03:13:45:08] No. (Tony) no (Carol) and they still didn't speak on that
night..they were still in two…it wasn't that they didn't speak - they were there and they
were there and the dance floor was between them so …*03:13:57:07+
Q: So go on…what went on..?
CAROL: [03:13:59:18] Well we just, we just ignored them didn't we? (Tony) it was just
like a (Carol) I don't even think I went to their tables, I just thought ….I was only
then…Tony and I …whenever the starters came out we ate at a table then for the main
course we moved to another table - there was 280 guests or something, there wasn't
one aunt or one uncle [03:14:17:01]
Q: Just friends?
CAROL: [03:14:18:11] Totally friends - two immediate families and the rest were all
friends…so ….no we didn't …and we thought …and everybody said that our wedding was
one of the most casual, pleasant, unbelievably brilliant days ever - we done everything
like home…you know like soup and sandwiches for lunch at our wedding and their meal
wasn't until 6 o'clock …we had ….a 28 piece orchestra playing all day, craic , we'd a
…what do you call it..a bagpiper - he piped them onto the island…he got drunk and he
hadn't the air to fill the bag at the end of the night I swear to god in heaven weeee - he
�was there too long the poor critter and it was the first lie I told me husband, he cost
£150, I told him £75 he said oh get him he'll be lovely but it was £150 and only he played
about 20 mins and my brother got him drunk and he hadn't the air to put into the
bagpipes but anyway…*03:15:07:11+ we just…our day was just full of music and dance
and fun and at 11 o'clock at night it was a firework display - 12 min one …so we'd a
brilliant day - no they never connected - there was no connection [03:15:23:13]
Q: And has there has been since though?
CAROL: [03:15:26:19] ….well when Tony's Dad is in hospital, in a residential care home
at the minute and ah when he was in hospital my mom and Dad went to see him
…uhuh….*03:15:38:12+
Q: And that was the first time that they had met was it?
TONY: [03:15:41:05 I'm not sure….
Q: I'm just …what I'm getting at is what sort of relationship did they have?
CAROL: [03:15:48:19] None. (Tony) None really not since - they know of each other and
know each other.
Q: And brothers and sisters?
CAROL: [03:15:53:09] Our brothers and sisters? {Yeah} (Tony) Ah well they've all met
each other occasionally but y’know…
Q: So it’s a generational thing then?
CAROL: [03:16:00:15] Yeah. (Tony) It is aye - they are safe in their own space and so….
Q: So everyone's kind of comfortable dancing around that a little bit?
Yeah aye yeah.
END FILE
File 010160
Start TC: 03:16:14:10
Q: I want to ask you a question, you got married at 40 but had you been 20 years of age
do you think it would have been much harder for you? I suspect it would have…
CAROL: [03:16:18:21] We would had to go England or something wouldn't we? (Tony).
If we were 20 now it wouldn't have been as hard I don't think.
Q: Would it?
�TONY: Now. (Carol) Now? (Tony) To me it wouldn't (Carol) you mean if it was now?
Q: Now yeah…
CAROL: [03:16:26:19] Not a chance …my child's 22 - Patsy's 22 not a mission (Tony) not
a problem
Q: Things have changes radically then?
TONY: [03:16:32:20] Massively. (Carol) Not for everybody no not for everybody. (Tony)
No not for everybody. (Carol) There are still that..y'know ..well in all walks, there is still
an element of …that old fashioness…even young people…my daughters age would be not a mission - not going there y’know so no …but I mean Patsy's had a brilliant growing
up with us because we sent her to an integrated school - that was unheard of in the
protestant community actually - we were nearly one of the first to send - well I was the
first in (May berg) Park ever…to send my child down to the integrated cos I wanted her
to go to go integrated [03:17:05:05] for me that was absolutely amazing that I lived in a
100% protestant place and she'd come home and say to me Mum, would you mind if I
played Camogie? I said not at all just don't bring the bat home (laugh) you know
because we played hockey - y'know protestant schools played hockey so…*03:17:20:19+
and she brought people home that would come… girls that played GAA …y’know and
come to my door - I used to be saying its lovely that she's meeting all these people
y'know cos we, I didn't meet anyone till I went to work - Catholics - I never went, I
wasn’t across the border…I think …..my god I must have been well over 20 and ..we're
going up to the border now..oh my god… I thought I would be shot cos I was a
protestant – that’s the way you thought - once you crossed that border you'd be pulled
into a field or something [03:17:47:09+ I was y'know…I remember one of…my very best
friend Rosie…I taught her the Sash and she taught me the Hail MARY in case it became a
big civil war y'know and you were stopped some night say Hail Mary full of Grace ….you
know I could sing it and she could learn the Sash - I says if ever there was trouble back
out in a car get out all the protestants and we'd all get out together and bluff them
y'know or whatever or get out all the Catholics y'know - we'd do that - so we 'd all wee
plans made for in case we were ever ambushed (laugh) [03:18:16:02].
Q: And what about your eh….upbringing Tony would you have had a plan B?
TONY: [03:18:23:04] I don't know - I always felt that if I was quite amicable with people
that I met and I just hoped that I knew enough people, wide enough range of people
that knew me well and having worked in places in Dungannon and Cookstown, being in
contact with a lot of people, that I didn't really think I had to. (Carol) That they would go
for you? [03:18:45:16] (Tony) Well I would have been afraid of …being in some
circumstances overwhelmingly maybe…one side that I would be in danger but I would
never put myself in those positions where I’d have been…..y'know overtly political - like I
�wouldn't have went to marches or went to any meetings or anything like that - I would
never been there…*03:19:05:01+
Q: When you were younger, when you were growing up, you did say you were aware of
us and them?
Tony: Oh aye...
Q …and so did you have any kind of…for example did you cross the border?
TONY: [03:19:16:20) Oh aye as soon as I could drive 19,…..I was in rock concerts down in
Dublin and Shamrock Park and Slane and everywhere.
Q: And what were your impressions of the south?
TONY: [03:19:29:20] Then?….impressions were…..it was exciting, it was different different signs and different accents and stuff and but I wasn't quite at one with it , I
mean it wasn't …I didn't feel like it was my home …my …y’know like the Ireland…the old
Ireland that people always talked about I didn't feel it was quite me either y'know – that
I was still different but …but I felt safe there and it was exciting and …y'know ….it didn't
seem like home but it seemed like another place - a friendly place - different
culture[03:20:06:12]
Q. And you had impressions that it was a hostile place?
CAROL: [03:20:08:16] Oh…just people down there…oh don't open your mouth and don't
say your name y'know ..in case they'd found out …I'd never…I can tell you now - I know a lot of protestants who have still not been across the border - in my age group and
would NOT go across the border …I know, that’s the truth *03:20:27:03+
Q: So now we're in this…well into the peace process and what are your impressions for
the future? Obviously things have changed you've said for the 20 year old now or even
for the 40 year old now there are less issues …the issues are more immediate? Family
based issues but the society has become much more integrated?
CAROL: [03:20:52:08] Well…,so is that going to…get better you think?- *03:20:55:23+
we've a different …..in Cookstown at the moment , we have 2,000 ethnic minorities so
that’s the difference for us ….20 years ago it was only the Pakistani man coming round
selling clothes that’s the only person - he'd been a big..oh my goodness look, look, look,
- and the children would run away - now we've 2,000 Portuguese/African/Lithuanian
/Czechoslovakian - people who all use the Hub [03:21:27:06] that are in Cookstown
now which is ….now people …..are thinking - she's going with a Portuguese…he's going
with a Lithuanian….y'know so it’s all that kind of a craic so….we've sort of slid back on
�the Catholic/Protestant thing so its now ooohh…y'know…so I'm not sure [03:21:50:03]
(Tony) it’s strange…just depends on what…. y'know …what exactly what community exact community group you come from - you know there's communities within
communities - there's like different shades of color in every community, but there's
more and more in the middle white - y'know I always think of the Green and the orange
and the white in-between – it’s a play I think I read once or something - and there's
more white people in between who are different shades of pale green or pale Orange or
..you know there's more of that…but still on the outside there's maybe 25% of people I'd
imagine *03:22:21:06+ really that hold on to their…
(Carol) I love the 12th of July, the 12th of July …I don't know if you like it or not but I love
the 12th of July and I'm not sectarian in any way - I …because people …some people
think oh the 12th - starts to all the trouble but for me growing up the 12th of July was 5
kids - all new outfits - plastic sandals, 10p each or 2 shillings back then - our hair all
combed - the excitement was like Christmas eve night - it was so exciting and all slid into
the back of a Zephyr car and mommy drove us up to wherever the parade was that day
and we couldn't wait to see Daddy coming past [03:23:02:08] walking and all the bands you get a punnet of strawberries and mommy brought a loaf of bread and butter and
she brought chips from a van and we all got a lot of chips and a sandwich - it was just so
exciting - and even yet to me and I grew up with the 12th of July and I absolutely, I loved
to hear the ..when you hear the bands you just want to …y’know you just love to tap
your feet and it brings me back to those happy memories when I didn't know anything
about bombing or anything about shooting or Catholics or Protestants - it was my day
out and our family day out and Daddy got a bus and we waved him off in this big bus
and we all slid up the road and it was just so exciting - a blanket and an old shook we
were sitting in mommy would have lined out the stuff and millions, we thought, millions
of people walked past us and it was just - we went home that night exhausted but
thrilled that it was our day *03:23:51:09+ but there was no…it was a ….to me it was a
happy family day and then society caused me to stop talking about how I used to love
the 12th - no I …people say to me oh that should be banned - if it was banned it would
break my heart [03:24:09:13] if they banned the 12th
Q: But the Catholic community don't have a similar day out?
TONY: No, no so there's…. we don't have …
Q: It’s wonderful to hear, it’s a great reflection - an innocence almost and there's no
kind of political dimension –
CAROL: [03:24:33:02] Never came into it
Q : - or sectarian dimension to it, it was just a holiday , a great holiday?
CAROL: With red white and blue clothes - honestly - you know everybody, every child
[03:24:41:21] had like a red skirt or shorts, a white and a blue - everything was red white
�and blue - it was just part of …it wasn't ..like y’know putting it on now go and show your
catholic neighbours what you wear - it was nothing to do with that - and bear in mind
that we lived in Stewartstown in the middle of 96% catholic area so you know we still
thought it was ok - that was our day out and – y’know it was ok with them they allowed
us to go - they were happy for us to go that’s in our heads what we thought y'know
[03:25:09:02] so I'd be shocked now when people say the 12th creates trouble so it’s
only elements within communities that create trouble on our 12th.[03:25:18:06]
Q: Is that actually a fair thing to say that it is only elements, a very small minority that
grab the headlines.
CAROL: 03:25:26:01]Without a shadow of a doubt…(Tony) I think the strong…leaders
are - the community influences - the strong people in communities who….don't let go of
the leash on their communities …they don't …you know they've still got this hold over
them..y’know like a dogma and like a….its forbidden…once you cross that line you're not
one of us so you have to keep in and you are encouraged to toe the line …so, I think
that’s…I don't know whether its conscious or unconscious but there seems to be..and
there’s also a very strong organizational part of that – it’s well organized so it doesn't
break down [03:26:03:03] it’s so…it’s so compact and steadfast that it won't just melt
slowly – it’s very carefully orchestrated almost, that it won't ever go away …or even
blend into something more widely acceptable you know what I mean? [03:26:19:11]
Q: Do you think that’s going to change ever? Any time soon?
CAROL: [03:26:22:22] No. (Tony) No, well the institutions are there in a way…y’know
even looking at both sides of the community - if I was a typical nationalist I would only
play Gaelic or hurling, I would only go to chapel mass …I would only….(Carol) vote Sinn
Fein (Tony) vote Sinn Fein etc, etc and if it was only…if I was only…if I was a protestant
or a Unionist tradition I would only do the opposite - I would be in a band or in an
Orange Lodge - so you've two separate paths and once you go on one of those paths
that’s you for life basically *03:26:59:18+ not totally but there is a fair wee division
but…..(Carol) It wouldn't be political why you started voting for someone else it would
be personal (laugh).
TONY: Aye it would be personal aye yeah [03:27:12:07]
Q: And in a way society has bigger things to worry about at the moment in terms of
unemployment and ….(Tony) but I have too
Q: Than traditions…
TONY: [03:27:21:18] And I would look on the working class protestant community as
very underprivileged …and a lot of them have a closed mind…I feel, I feel sympathy
towards them rather than disrespect or, or …I would have thought that, y’know, they
�could've done with….a bit more open mindedness from their community leaders or
something y'know..you don't have to lose…lose your way to see other people's opinions
like [03:27:47:16] (Carol) You ever remember when the EEC funding come in? That was
like…that was like the devils money in protestant terms cos I remember saying to Daddy
'everybody's getting their shop fronts done up Dad.’ And He owned a garage and he
says 'I don't know where to get the money’ I says, let me make a phone call and I
phoned a particular ….(Tony) politician? …(Carol) … I'm not going to say what office it
was that I phoned one of the members but I phoned and I said ' do you know anything
about the EEC money? We don't deal with THAT money, that’s outside money!
*03:28:17:23+ …and put the…and that’s what happened, sadly, an awful lot of
protestants - even Orange halls wasn't done up because they refused the money, and if
they had taken the money back when the EEC money was good, every Orange hall
would be …nice wooden sprung floors in it - they'd be running sociable things out in
rural areas, everything - but they turned the money down and now they're crying clutching for a bit of funding y'know and I am ….a protestant so I was livid at that time
because all the Catholics - well why wouldn't they when the money was coming in? if I
was a catholic I would have put a new roof on me house but…when money was coming
in - the protestants - no - because they were ignorant [03:28:58:03] they didn't know
what EEC meant or what it..y'know …they just hadn't a clue … to them EEC was like IRA
….so, y’know, we're not touching that money - its filthy money!…. give it to the
protestants now and EEC money and…*03:29:15:08+ we'll go the Maldives!
Q: I'll just hold you for one second there…. I just wanted to talk to you about..you
mentioned earlier that when you were growing up there was 93% catholic? And the
protecting of the culture..you said something about you had to protect your culture?
CAROL: [03:29:32:21] Did I say that? (Tony) I might have said that…
Q: I think you did Carol, you were talking about protecting your culture - you were kind
of defending yourself
CAROL: [03:29:40:16] 0h aye the Ballylumford?
Q: Yeah..I just want to…maybe if you talk a little about ….the right to express your
culture now….do you feel that…and the whole flag protest and all that whole …..
situation that is happening in NI what do you think about that Carol?
CAROL: [03:30:01:20] I still believe that you should have a right to express….your beliefs
…look a flag to me is a piece of material - no matter what color it is…I just don't
like…our, our flags hang out …look this is the way I grew up and this is the way I stand,
and, and thanks be to god my father brought me up this way - my father put his union
jack out and Union Jack only - out on the 11th night and he brought it in at 5 to 12 …the
next night and that was…that was, that was the old fashion…that was the respectable,
�good Christian way of celebrating the 12th of July - you put your flag out on the 11th
night and bring it in at midnight on the next night and that was lovely [03:30:49:09] and
we never…in all of that area in Stewartstown ..my father…our family was very well
respected …and we never had any trouble - my father still hung out his Union Jack
because that was his culture and it never was taken down…it never was burnt …and I
mean we had bombs and deaths and shootings in our home town and y’know a lot of
horrific stuff happened but our Union Jack never was taken down…*03:31:14:18+ so I
think people respected that it was put out and taken back in again the next day and i
think that’s lovely and I still love my Dad for putting out his flag that night and bring it…I
just think that’s - look at Dad he's got it back in again and all and that’s lovely - that’s the
way it should be - but now I see flags hanging out to infuriate other people and they
hang out till they become dish cloths y'know to the following year plus the fact not
just…y'know everything's …it’s a whole vicious circle…..*03:31:43:06+ …the collecting of
money for new flags…they would never need money for new flags if they took them in
on the 12th night , washed and ironed them - put them into the bottom drawer, and
brought them out the next year….but up and down Cookstown street we have…and like
I mean ..don't get…we've beautiful….arches and they do some lovely displays on the
12th of July and stuff like that but the flag issue is …..they don't hang them out for the
reason they should hang them out - as a celebration day - they hang them out and say
look what we can do….*03:32:11:19+ …y'know like I did when we turned Ballylumford the lights out - y'know - look at that there - we'll hang them out - you'll not take our
flags down….you know that’s just …. you can be a really good decent protestant …and
hang out your flag…and love Catholics at the same time - there’s nothing wrong with
it…y'know..I never hang out a …I never hung out a flag number one cos I've a awful lot
of catholic friends who visited me and out of respect I thought well if just one of them
was hurt walking under that flag, well I'm not hanging it out….*03:32:43:15+
Q: And do you think that your love for each other has actually …has made you
more…tolerant of the other side?
CAROL: [03:32:50:12] Oh for sure …for sure (Tony) Although Carol you had a quite a lot
of friends, Catholics, before you met me and I think you were ahead of me in the game
in some ways but… I'd be more exposed to more to Carol's culture and her background,
not her personally but her people she knows and meeting people …I learned to respect
that their …their celebrations are a cultural thing and…a celebration and not a..not
antagonizing as it would have been years ago to me maybe….y'know, I would have
thought of coat trailing and that every band was an army without an arsenal – it’s an
army…they are playing the flutes today but tomorrow they could be carrying
guns….*03:33:28:00+ that’s the way the Catholics saw it - these are all armies - every
parish had its own army and then one day, if necessary, they will ditch their flutes and
be…and I'm sure that’s the way it was intended originally but it’s just been a tradition
now – it’s all about music and marching but originally it was like a small…like scout troop
- so military…so…[03:33:47:14](Carol) I never thought you saw our bands as being
�(Tony) when I was younger I did…(Carol) oh…(Tony) well you know…(Carol) that’s a
good 'un (Tony) if you wanted an army what you do is all the Orange lodges and all the
bands and you have an army …within 24hrs you would have an army as long as you had
the guns…
Q: That harps back to ancient times when the band led the soldiers to battle?
TONY: Ancient times…300 yrs ago ……that’s what I saw it as …that’s just me maybe
being a bit….but now I don't see it like that - I just see it (Carol) and tell them why not…
[03:34:11:18] (Tony) Patsy plays in a band in Magherafelt … and my brother visited one
night and she says to me don't let him see me in uniform (laugh) hide - close the door
(Carol) that was her respecting Tony's brother - don't let him see me in a uniform - it
wasn't because I wouldn't..it just was y’know …..just in case it might annoy him that I'm
in a band uniform y'know …..(Tony) or he might think less of her [03:34:33:19]
Q: And should it? Should it annoy him?
CAROL: No it shouldn't (Tony) it shouldn't but…*03:34:37:12+ (Carol) because …because
we're living up here and we know that it just takes that (clicks fingers) to trigger off
somebody’s pain or hurt from the past - y'know if we keep it as neutral as we can and
y'know ….like Patsy…patsy loves the feeling of belonging to …she's an only child - she
loves the family thing of a group and teamwork she never had it in our house cos we
always kilt one another but now she has this big group of family and I say why do you
like it in the band? ..she did say to me - I want to join this band mum do you mind if I
carry the flag? I said I'd prefer if you played the flute but if you want to carry the flag
that’s entirely up to you and I'll give you my blessing *03:35:12:15+ so she says no
…there's something nice about this so, absolutely, I mean Tony leaves her to the bus to
get a lift in - to us it’s just …something she loves doing , she belongs to this team of
people and they're all good to her and y'know….. we don’t see it as a…[03:35:26:08]
Q: And are there many people, obviously there are many who are intolerant , but are
there many people like yourselves who are tolerant or who just keep themselves to
themselves and don't express their distaste, if you like, for the divisions?
TONY: [03:35:41:06] Well there's 40% of people who don't vote for a start so whether
inactive politically or just don't approve of the system or the history being kept going
on…I don't know why that is but a lot of those people are disengaged from….
y'know…being able to do anything about it…or y’know so[03:36:02:19]
Q: So you could argue that either they are indifferent or they're fed up with it or they
have very strong views but they don't want to air them because of the repercussions
…its very complex?
�TONY: [03:36:14:01] Its very complex (Carol) it’s a combination of all three yeah
….absolutely (Tony) I’d say there were a lot of people confused as well…they don't
where to…(Carol) yeah people is afraid - y'know we have the two main parties Sinn Fein
and DUP no…it’s not a secret like y’know….so if you're a protestant and you're afraid
that ….that you've been told …by strong leaders or whatever - if you don't vote for us
they're going to get in and the country’s going to go to rack and ruin so you vote for
them…*03:36:45:18+ no matter….like I mean, growing up in our house - Number one Daddy…I'm sure he …he never said who he voted for but we thought it was DUP so we
all just grouped DUP.. when you come 18 …DUP…DUP …because I didn't know what DUP
stood for, I didn't know who was in the DUP, that I had to put the X for - not a notion in
my head and I had no political interest then and I have far less now [03:37:10:06]
because I don't think ..the politicians are the people that will make this country good in
the future…I think it will be the people themselves….*03:37:21:07+
Q: And to that end do you think there will be a United Ireland and if there was how
would you feel about it?
CAROL: I wouldn't want a united Ireland, definitely wouldn't want a united Ireland
because ….I said that cross did I? Did I say that like with a sorta guns blazing? no? …well
number 1, I was born in Northern Ireland so I'm politically British and culturally Irish so
to amalgamate….it would be horrific for somebody born in the 6 counties that’s our
world and then the next thing no its no more …no you’re all belonging to the one
thing…it would scare me I think [03:37:56:17]
Q: So you still have that fear of the border? (Laughter)
CAROL: No its gone now …no I just ..I don't know I think…I think it’s nice - the 6 of
us…..y'know I think we're all…don't forget we've Donegal whose y'know….that’s…so I'm
not saying we’re all, the 6 counties are all protestant I just like the North of Ireland and I
think years ago if they had of let us…you know Home rule…. back then ..it would have
been much better - I love down South cos when we go down south, once we cross, what
used to be the border, we just love…we just think we're …in the Maldives
….*03:38:30:13+…y'know, and that’s… if we're going for the weekend straight to
Letterkenny, Sligo, Donegal, Dublin…we love it – it’s like our holidays but I still like my 6
counties I feel - what about you? [03:38:42:01] If I can give him word in here …hang
on…. (Tony) No …. I think…(Carol) be careful now!…(laugh) we're married 10 years, we
might not see 11….only joking…(Tony)….no I don't think I want it either - I don't think
very deep in their hearts that most Nationalists believe or really want it …because we
are, been…we've been apart so long we're not the same y'know and I think similar to
what Carol said , we're either British living in Ireland or else Irish living in Britain
whatever the way you want to look at it *03:39:13:05+ or a combination…. in a small way
as far as I like HP sauce watch BBC my favorite channel and I listen to Radio 4 plus local
stations and sometimes RTE 2 but you know what I mean, …generally I wouldn’t watch
�TG4 or anything like that there, but culturally I'd be Irish as far as poetry and plays and
…but only with a small I and mild color of green y'know what I mean but …. but I think
…I think you can push the NI thing too far as well like ……we sort of want to be a
separate entity but I think we're all similar in Britain, Ireland, NI….I think we're too close
to be …to be that much different *03:39:54:13+
Q: And it probably sounds to me that it would matter less as the generations go on.
TONY: I think so (Carol) praise be to god….I hope it comes soon.
Q: But you still want to have your identity? But it doesn't matter what that identity
is….it’s about harmony isn’t it really?
CAROL: [03:40:13:10) Oh for sure ….but I don't mind… I never was afraid of even saying
to Catholics I love the 12th and I'll explain to them why I like the 12th y'know and
….then you allow them to tell you why they hate it y'know….and…I've…my longest
bestest dearest friend Rosie is a Catholic - I stood for her child - and that was a big thing
too - Protestant standing for a Catholic child [03:40:36:06]
Q: What do you mean 'stand for her'?
CAROL: Christening…
Q: Oh yeah as a Godmother?
CAROL: We had a - they had to ask the priest was it ok for me to come along y’know
and…..
Q: What did he say?
CAROL: Well there was 3 of us then you see so I'm not sure if I ever did stand for her - I
think he scored my name out whenever I looked back at him….*03:40:51:02+ (laugh)
there was 3 of us …and that was a big thing and … y’know, I know….Rosie says- I really
want you to stand for …but I knew there was a 'but' in it and she was horrified having to
ask me - I think she wanted me to say 'sure it’s all right let them 2 do it - but I wanted to
stand for her first child y'know cos I was there when she was born and I wanted to be
part of it as well but guess what you’re standing for your child….but then I saw 3 of us
and thought uhuh….*03:41:19:20+
Q: So it sounds to me that here’s a community that has a bit of a psychological blockage
and that is this preoccupation with each other? So if that could be released in some way
and this is getting back to the theatre and the drama and some of your work as well, you
facilitate as well I gather - so is that what you are hoping to achieve on some level?
[03:41:46:23] (Carol) …without a doubt …I say this
�Q: Is that what is driving you?
CAROL: This is not boasting but I have actually…we have moved mountains in
Cookstown…through my art work and my writing …I wrote the story about Tony and I afraid to tell our parents and I wrote it in a very humorous way…we sold out 34 times in
the North and I had letters from mixed marriages …people stopped me and said ‘Carol
you have no idea how near the knuckle that was’ - I cried when I went home and I had
letters from, Carol, honest to god that just made it…I made it so funny….that my father
laughed till the tears were running onto his tie…*03:42:35:17+ he cried…and I can tell
you now that …..on one of…the night that my father was there - 3 seats behind him
there was an escapee from Portlaoise prison who was released years ago - sitting behind
my father and I remember looking through a crack in the set cos I wanted to see was
Daddy laughing or disgusted, but he was in hysterics laughing and the man behind him
was in hysterics laughing and I often…I do say oh my god…look what we have done with
a bit of craic on the stage and everybody was hitting one another - did you hear
that….*03:43:07:14+ nobody knew anybody and I knew… I knew that I had moved people
…and I mean, it’s ridiculous to say it but it changed people's minds on what we'd done
that night in that play. Absolutely changed them - changed their opinion and people was
brought down slightly about saying things - they thought it was amazing - y'know …it
was very bold to do it but we done it and it really it….*03:43:31:19+
Q: And humor was the key?
CAROL: Without the shadow of a doubt ….y'know every show that I have y'know….I
have to bring something to do with y’know the orange and the green into it because I do
think….I don't know… maybe I have the gift of just bringing it right to the very edge - not
far enough for it to fall over but just enough for people to say …and then laugh
y'know…but I have to say it was through art…art is one of the ways - art and sports and I
say this in every show - I said - get your kids into art, the arts - any part of the arts, music
and sport… and that will keep them integrated *03:44:10:03+
Q: It’s expression as well.
CAROL: Oh for sure
Q: Did your family go to see any of Carol's work?
TONY: [03:44:17:02] They’re not great theatre goer's to be honest with you - they rarely
went to see me even before Carol joined the group that I was in so I didn't really. I just
took it for granted that they're not really into theatre or that sort of thing so I just, after
a few performances I just let it go, they're not going to come…they came to some …but
few…but I think it’s one of the ways as Carol says, of developing community you know
cohesion and stuff ….and even as far as me living that 90% ..99% housing estate with
�Carol initially, If I could be one person to get out and meet some other people and be
able to wave to my neighbors and when they’re taking in their dustbins and say hullo
and lend them a hand if they were carrying something heavy and then I could knock on
their door and say could you lend me a spade?….*03:45:24+ that one person is not a
danger to the 99, to the 99 people but you are an example of what can happen to them,
it makes them think maybe they're not all the same or we could maybe live with one or
two more of those people in our community - there wouldn't be any danger and they
are quite ok - and the same with drama, they slowly…this place here by slowly bringing
in people without meaning really to do anything…directly about that community
cohesion, but by slowly just making everybody feel welcome at home and part of a
team, you can slowly…subconsciously bring them to not thinking about being different
so they slowly become just….don't think about it, just come here….or…*03:45:46:14+
(Carol) You have to draw them in, you can't force them or invite them you have to draw
them in - and I'm amazing at drawing them in, and once you get them in y'know there's
no turning back - once you get them in – I mean like that drama today we were drew
into that all right !! [03:46:00:03] Y'know so there's no turning back so, things like that
there …if you are good at drawing them in - once you draw a group in, and then do your
work, your magic on them whatever …it’s unbelievable how people leave after a really
good workshop or piece of drama or whatever [03:46:18:17] (Tony) I think that’s why
politicians will not succeed cos they always have their agenda…their markers for their
position and all that there - this is a neutral sort of thing that doesn't have any agenda
behind it and it’ll work, where politicians always have an agenda or a…a background
that will go a certain direction (Carol) I met Martin McGuinness - remember we met
Martin McGuinness - never met him like - never shaked his hand - not telling anybody
that! but we were at…. We were at Yeats grave up in Sligo when we were away for a
weekend and we were coming out and Martin McGuinness was walking as well, we
were all coming out of the graveyard….and I thought oh my God… ten years ago I would
have fainted y'know but now I looked at him and thought he's just an ordinary man
that’s doing a job …y’know and I felt…actually felt sorry for him - I felt my god he's an
awful lot on his shoulders that has to prove to his people and prove to our people andthat must be one hell of a job to have to do…to keep us happy - to keep them happy y'know to keep everybody happy – it’s unreal [03:47:29:08] and then we went back to
the dining room the next morning and Nuala O'Loan …she was having her toast with us
too - we were - I thought - is it a sign that I have to stand for election next year? (laugh)
[03:47:40:24]
Q: And you wouldn't do that would you?
CAROL: D'you know this here ….it has been talked about….would I stand for election? I
probably would be thrown out of the council houses or council offices the first night
because I think I'd get a good vote - cos I'm a very…I'm a peoples person and I love - I
love people…I absolutely love people and I hate their pain and I always try and eliminate
pain by our drama groups, no matter what the pain comes from….I love to eliminate
�it….and I imagine …I tell you now I could flipping do a better job than a good few of the
politicians and our councilors - I would say that to them no problem [03:48:23:18]
Q: As an independent then?
CAROL: No I wouldn't stand for election and I'll tell you why…here what I'm doing I have
no red tape - nobody's holding my hands here or tying my hands …I'm free to do
whatever I want in this place - I can bring in….we had a Portuguese night here - 80
Portuguese / African people came into this building and they had a ball… I can let them
out and bring in the Polish - I can have a Catholic night and a Protestant night - I can
have a mixed night whatever but if I was on the council and I was ……even independent
…you'd have to be good mannered and you'd have to go down a path - I'm not like that I don't think we should be here with…we need certain rules and regulations but I don't
do rules and regulations …I think, I'm a free burden..I like everybody to express how
they are feeling…..so no I'll not be standing for election …just in case people, that rumor
gets out *03:49:19:00+ wouldn't do it….I think they would vote me in actually….
Q: Carol when I thought when you said if you scratch the surface it could erupt again?….
CAROL: [03:49:33:22] Without a shadow…there's people waiting on it …..you know that
red face - you know the way they were sitting today? That’s….that’s absolutely ….there
are some…but you know this…I'm not sure….cos you're from Dublin…I'm not sure if you
know the hold that the Troubles had on people - you ask any pharmacy or any GP how
many prescribed drugs there are for depression,….where did all these suicides come out
of? …and I sit and I think this and…please God if this ever would get on a video what I'm
going to say….but whenever…like I mean there's been horrific things and y’know the
Omagh bombing and Teebane up the road and that shooting and y'know other peoples
shooting….but there were people who were addicted to that - there had to be people
addicted to being given an order to do a job…and making the phone call - I've done it on the news that night - now I don't imagine anybody who shot people or blew them up
were sitting in a house…some people would think they’re all laughing the night and
y’know drinking beer - I don't think that happened….*03:50:48:20+ I think that the
people that done the killings, on both sides,……they were trying to make a point - of
course they were trying to make a point but they done it by murdering and…the bigger
the bomb or whatever the more recognition they would get and the nearer to their goal
that they would get ….but….I, I never….I, I don't know…. I just think when then all the
Troubles stopped and blaring of horns one night that everything was all come
good….that’s when it come bad….cos nobody was ever weaned off the Troubles….it was
taken off them overnight……bury your guns its over….well, I'm addicted to
chocolate….and if you take my chocolate off me overnight I, I would really get the
shakes and if you said to me you're never allowed chocolate again - and that’s
simplifying it - I'd be distraught - so I can only imagine to be addicted to the adrenalin of
shooting a man or a woman or blowing up somebody to get attention for your side, for
�the political divide….to take that off them overnight and not wean them off it
*03:51:58:09+ …there was a period there where nothing happened to nobody….and then
we have suicides…a lot of…all our…stabbings - stabbings is taken off up here - we used
to be you would hear of a stabbing in Cork or down in Kerry but there was never none of
this happening now - now we've drugs ….. y'know so….we're no better off because
there's peace because all these other elements of stuff that the people are getting their
kicks out of have gone into so….really and truly we have an awful lot of cleaning up to
do to make people feel happy, but I do think….that whenever they ended….when the
Good Friday agreement and all was signed - the people who were getting the praise for
doing that forgot about the people in-between that was doing their work for them when
they were giving orders [03:52:50:16] so now all these people feel abandoned and
rejected….y’know like if I was your boss at the times of the Troubles and you said to me
it’s over Carol – it’s completely over and then I'm looking at you in a new 3 piece suit
and a big wage packet and I'm still in the Brew - you're not giving me the money you
used to give me or the praise you used to give me for doing the work for you…. sure
how do you think I would feel? [03:53:12:13] I'd feel totally abandoned and totally
rejected….so y'know while people say oh….they're wreaking and tearing… I understand
why they are wreaking and tearing….. they were addicted to an adrenalin that they were
told was…y'know going to be…if you do this for us we are going to have the most
wonderful country in the world…and them critters overnight were told NOT to do it any
more, and I'm sure the people giving the orders didn't take them all into a room and do
a 10 week course on how to wean themselves off this adrenalin and put them onto a
different adrenalin - so they found it themselves….*03:53:54:08+ in a not so nice way…
Q: So it could erupt again?….
CAROL: oh for sure…
Q: It kind of is already in pockets isn't it? Still a lot of anger.
CAROL: [03:54:06:21] But y'know you'll always seek that adrenalin …if there was a time
in your life with that adrenalin rush y'know and….and somebody saying 'well done'
'Good man'….I don't know what happened sure I was never…but I'm just …I’m only
surmising in my head 'oh my god that was brilliant…well done …good bit of work
tonight'…and then take it off you…y'know..you're left with nothing, no praise, no
money, no future… *03:54:29:22+ …the way YOU saw…the way you were TOLD that the
future was going to happen…it’s been taken off you..so I, I look at all of them and ….all
of our politicians on both sides and I think Oh my god I feel…I really feel sorry for them
….for they had to make the transition overnight and then try to draw in ..y'know…but
it’s still drawing in two different crowds - there's never one party that can draw in both
crowds *03:54:57:17+ and that’s just sad y'know?
�Q: And do you think there’s a solution to that? Is there a way that these people who
have been left, as it were, is there a therapy that can be done for these people,
something that can be done by society to help them?
CAROL: [03:55:21:03] Well y'know we just have to keep on working at what we are
doing, it’s….it’s not too late, because if you say it’s too late then everybody goes oh god
I'm stuck in this dark hole, there's a lot of people in dark holes at the minute …OK at one
time I thought I could …heal the world…and then when you realize it’s too big, you can't
even heal your own town …I think leading by example is absolutely the best way
forward is to lead by example…I don't know…y’know it would be so lovely - I'm a peace
woman - I love harmony…hate pain …but I love people, I don't care who they are, what
color their skin is, what shape or size doesn't come into it - I LOVE people - I hate their
pain…I love to see them reaching their full potential because everybody has it but that
middle bracket of people now that have been left behind, don't know it. [03:56:15:00]
They only ever saw themselves as being perfect because they were told they were
perfect after doing something horrific for the cause, on both sides, and then they were
left with no education, most of them….no money, no praise , they were left with nothing
- and they were abandoned – the people were abandoned [03:56:34:05]
Q: And the onus is on the leaders basically?
CAROL: [03:56:37:10] Well I…how can the leaders now go back and say we're on a
different shift here, y'know, we're on the turn again, because then it’s going to create
more problems…. I don't know I think there needs to be…I don't know…I really have no
answer - if I had the answer for that …well y’know there would be tents in Cookstown
and we'd all be living in one tent …I don't know …but I do think there's a way – y’know if
you can build wee pockets of harmony and spread that to another wee pocket and
spread it to another wee pocket then at least we're doing something every day - I don't
think we should stop because we’re only changing the minds of 3 people a week - I think
those 3 people are very important and they can change 3 more the next week …and
that’s, it’s going to be a long process…but…I think eventually it will come round
….*03:57:23:15+Q that’s a positive note to end on….
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
24
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
21 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3458
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/120bc6b0ae19511165697722b6799357.pdf
91510638158e8000ca26ffbf6bcc5bc9
PDF Text
Text
23 November 2013
Interview with:
Charlie McMenamin
Venue: Gasyards Arts Centre, Derry
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
FILE NO:
TC START
ST0024
02:13:51:21
Q: Maybe you could start Charlie by telling us where you grew up and a bit about your
family?
CHARLIE: [02:14:16:10] I grew up in the Bogside area of the city here and, not far away
from here, near the interface where I now work at times, a place called Howard Street that’s where I grew up and that’s where there were …troubles…whatever people want to
call it… that’s where I first encountered it. [02:14:38:01] Because I woke up one morning
and there was a barricade built outside my house. The barricade was to prevent people
from the Unionist community and the Police, who were 99% Unionist, made up from
people from the Unionist community at the time, coming in and attacking our community.
But we, we were moved out of it and moved to prefabs on Foyle road, as part of that
protection - to try and protect us - and while we were away our homes were wrecked by
the B-Specials. [02:15:12:15] Several years later, not several years, but not too long after
it….the British Army came into the North of Ireland and my Grandmother lived at the, the
heart of it which was up at Butcher's gate - she lived in what we know as the High Flats –
and my Grandmother would have sent me up with tea and sandwiches for the British
Army - they were quite friendly at that stage - everyone welcomed them because they
believed that they were there to protect us from the bad people in the Unionist
community. [02:15:49:23] I didn't know, I wasn't taught that there was Protestants and
Catholics…I wasn't… religion never really came into it for a lot of us… so I, I didn't really
understand at that age ….. so the first really bad experience we had was… Bloody
Sunday… I lived inCreggan at the time and the march passed down [02:16:16:24] by our
house, down Rathlin Drive. People were singing, I think it was 'we shall overcome', that
�was the song and it always stood out in my mind. But later on that day… y'know 1000's of
people passed out house, but later on that day people were coming back and they were
crying and upset and we were hearing about all these different incidents where people
wet getting shot. First of all people were injured, shot and injured and then we heard
people were dead. A fellow called Seosamh Mahon was shot from our street and other
people in the Creggan area were shot dead. [02:16:58:08] I was young at the time, I just
knew that 13 people had been killed and, and a lot of people injured. Bloody Sunday had
the effect of….. Most people my age group were pretty innocent and wouldn't have really
become involved in anything, I think….. throughout their lives, only for incidents like
Bloody Sunday…. and you heard about incidents where other people from other
communities were killed as well and British Soldiers were killed and Policemen were killed
- you didn’t really care because of what happened in your community. [02:17:36:14] So as
I grew up in, in the Bogside throughout the years, we had the British Army there all the
time, we had the RUC, it was a very oppressive atmosphere. I didn't really think about it
that way at the time - just thought it was terrible the way they were harassing us and
stopping us and it seemed so unfair and unjust, and they could raid your home, which
they did on Motorman [02:18:02:14], at any time. All of the homes in the Bogside were
raided, [02:18:07:23] a lot of homes were raided on a daily basis, so we grew up in that
atmosphere where these strangers were in our city and they were searching our homes.
And it’s funny because I met, in the past 10 years, with a former British soldier who said
that he joined the British Army to see the world and he ended up in a housing estate in
Creggan that had the same type of houses that he had …from where he came from in
Manchester. [02:18:38:24] So…. as the years went on we had all those experiences y'know I could have been arrested any day and held for 4 hours by the British Army,
beaten and abused and stuff like that - that happened on a regular basis - didn't really pay
much attention to us cos we were young and it sort of bounced off usy’know but… I'm
sure it had an effect on some people …. I threw stones at the British Army, I threw stones
at the Police, I rioted, I was up in court for rioting y'know so…. [02:19:15:09] I would still
classify myself as innocent enough but…. the worst experience I ever had was at 16 years
of age, I was arrested in April 1978….. Easter Sunday 1978, from my home, and I was taken
to Strand Road police station, or barracks as we called it at the time, because it wasn't
really known as a police station…… I had no parents with me, my parents asked could they
come with me and they were told no, and they asked about legal and they said you can’t
get anyone legal for 24 hours or whatever. [02:19:59:05] So I was taken away in this
armoured vehicle with about 7 British soldiers - heavily armed - and a policeman, as they
called themselves… I was taken to Strand Road. I was stripped of every possession I had in
my pockets, my shoelaces, my belt, all that, so everything was taken off me that….they’re
wee luxuries in life y'know, if you have a tissue in your pocket you’d like to hold onto it they take it off you - they take everything off you, so you had nothing and you had
nobody, so I was taken up a stairs [02:20:37:02] after a while - after seeing a doctor and
everything else - told the doctor that, that I was tired, I was nervous - cos I was up very
late the night before - I sat up listening to music till about 3, 4 in the morning - they raided
our house at 5, so I had very little sleep - so I was taken up the stairs by two grown men
and…. So, you know why you're here and stuff like that and they accused me of being
�involved in the murder of a policeman, and straight away I panicked I went 'what
policeman?'. I wouldn't know, y’know, you're taking to the wrong person - this went on
for hours - they kept swapping policemen and, and I think it was about 4 hours altogether
this went on for before… and these were all big men, some of these men were …. I'm not
going to say what age I am now but some of these men were my age now and they were
pretty big strong sortaguys y'know and very oppressive [02:21:28:03] you know right up
into your face, chair beside you y'know. You could picture me 16 years of age, I was no
size then like and I had no sense, y'know I didn't, I had absolutely no sense, I would, I
would say I wasn't the brightest spark on the block y'know so…… after a few hours they
kept..they brought in all these papers and files and stuff, ‘you were seen in this area and
this is where the shooting happened and this is what that happened and there's a
shooting happening there so many years ago maybe you were involved in that, maybe you
weren't involved in the murder, maybe you were just involved in this wee shooting or
maybe hijacked a car or something’, they kept at me and kept at me and…. ‘are you in the
junior wing of the IRA’….stuff like that. [02:22:36:16] I …. kept denying everything and
kept saying no I’m not involved in anything , I wasn't involved in anything - then they
started slapping me about, pull my hair…. making me stand up, making me sit down,
telling me that I was never going to see my parents and stuff like that and telling me also
that…. they were going to tell people in the community that I was a police informer – very,
very strong psychological stuff [02:23:06:18] so…. at one stage one of them just came into
the room to me - big guy - I could tell you his name but I'm not going to mention it,
because I don't even think he deserves to get his name mentioned, right up to me and at
me and at me and at me and I just said 'what do you want me to say?……. what do you
want me to say?' So I admitted… he said 'look if you admit being involved in this
organisation, we'll get you out and you'll see your parents and we'll get you out on bail
and stuff and we'll get off in the court case …..' so …….under……… under threat I signed
the statement [02:23:52:12] and……. admitted being involved in the Junior wing of the IRA
…. which I wasn't …. and…. I thought ' this is good, it’ll be over and done with nowy’know,
and I'll get out of here and I'll be able to tell my mother and father that I only done it to
get out of the place - so the minute I made a statement, two more came into the room
and they said we’re only starting ….so they gave me, issued me with a warrant that they
wanted me to tell more when I come up in the next interview and …. I decided…….. At that
stage that I was going to ask to see a doctor when I go downstairs because of, I felt they
had been pulling at my hair and stuff and I had a slap on the ear as well and my ears were
buzzing so when I went down the stairs [02:24:50:22] there was a radiator in the cell and
on the radiator was a screw, and I got a plastic cup, or a plastic spoon and started
screwing the screw out, and I got the screw out and then I started hacking at both of me
wrists, on both sides, ….and ….. There were a lot of blood and stuff like that and so I just
sat there - I didn't know what to do - it wasn't really making an impact y’know because it
was quite blunt - and I always say to people y'know if I had had a Stanley knife I’d have
been dead now [02:25:30:19] or if I had had a sharper implement I’d have been dead now.
That’s how oppressed I felt, and how hurt I felt at that stage, and how fearful I was of
going back up to be interviewed…… so… when all this is happening there was a lot of
movement outside, there was a lot of shouting and bawling and stuff, apparently they
�arrested a large group of men in Derry that day, who were marching in uniform,it was
Easter Sunday [02:26:01:02] and they had arrested them at the border and they brought
them all in so there was all this shouting and bawling and stuff…. and people kept lifting
the …the hatch and slamming it down, and looking in and shouting in at me and stuff - I
think it was the policemen - you know people would be saying 'is that him there? Yeah
that's him there, he was involved in the murder of a policeman…. y'know blah blah
blah'….. so when they did open the cell eventually to give me food, which I didn't eat, cos I
wasn't….. I just didn't feel at that stage that I cared about anything… but the blood - they
seen the blood and stuff so I thought, they'll take me to hospital and I'll tell the people in
the hospital [02:26:46:17] what happened and what's going on and …. why I done it and
stuff like that. They sent for a doctor, the doctor took me in and….. He looked at my hand,
asked me why I done it and I told him, I told him what had happened up the stairs and he
wrote everything down and he put bandages on my arms and I said to him 'is that it?". He
said' that's it'. 02:27:13:19] I said are you not going to send me to hospital? No, no, no, he
said I don't think the injuries are bad enough…. and …… about 15 minutes after it, after I
seen the doctor, I was taken back upstairs again and they were laughing at me because I
had tried to cut my wrists, made it worse for me…… so it was the same sort of scenario for
the next 48 hours. I hadn't seen my parents, I hadn't seen any legal people to tell me not
to do it [02:27:50:22] but I admitted being involved in 3 attempted murders, collecting
information, membership of the Junior wing of the IRA, all based on what they’d brought
in on files, they saidy’know what about this - everything was around that area near the
barracks cos I lived not far away from it anyway, so these grown men had convinced me in
3 days in Strand Road that I was involved in something and that I had taken part in all
sorts of incidents that I knew practically nothing about. [02:28:28:06] ….. I went to jail, I
spent 3 years in prison, luckily enough I didn't do as long as a lot of other people….
because I was so young, the Judge decided that he was going to give me a chance. I
pleaded guilty but I pleaded guilty under duress, my legal people had advised me that if I
fight the case, that I could get 20 years in prison and I wasn't…I was …. when I went to
court, I felt just as oppressed by what my legal people were telling me as I did at the hands
of the police. [02:29:05:23] In the meantime, we had found out that when one of the
shooting incidents happened, I had been somewhere else and we were able to produce
evidence of that during the bail application but my legal people told me it doesn't matter,
that charge might be dropped but the rest of the charges will proceed, and I felt that
because there was a discrepancy with one charge that if we went to court that the rest
would be thrown out because there was no proof, only my evidence - the only evidence
they had was what I said, what I admitted, I admitted being involved in hijacking a car but
they had no evidence, no statement from a person who had a car hijacked. The police put
all of this into my mind and into my head [02:29:52:03] and, and to me they call
themselves policemen but they weren't policemen per se, they weren't real policemen…. I
done 3 years in prison and when I came out of prison, I came out very angry. It was the
start of the hunger strike campaign. I got involved in that, and I’ve been involved in every
aspect of political struggle in this city ever since. And in 2007 I took my case through the
criminal cases review commission, back to court and I got all of my charges cleared, got
my name cleared, it took a long time but I knew I would do it eventually. And the reason
�that started is because I took part in a programme towards - called 'Towards
Understanding and Healing' [02:30:41:23] and it allowed me to tell my story. Up until
theny’know everyone was saying y'know that didn't happen and this… even the politicians
at the time were saying it didn't happen. John Hume, went to John Hume, he didn't want
to know, done nothing for me, done nothing for my mother while I was in prison….. said
that the police …. that if the police made the allegations then there must be some sort of
fact in them, so I was left, all those years feeling…. knowing that a wrong was done on me
….and knowing that there was no justice, no fairness …. and no….. equality depending on
where you came in the community. [02:31:27:10] So…. 2007 as I said, I went to court, the
judges were flabbergasted by what they were reading and what they were seeing and
they said it should never have happened. I got my name cleared and, and I've also, I’ve
been compensated for what happened to me so. And it wasn't about compensation, it
was about doing the right thing, and several other people since have taken their cases
back to court as well and won them on the basis, the same basis as myself. [02:32:00:09]
There was one case that followed me which is upcoming very soon - a case called the
Derry 4. They were in the same position, they all admitted being involved in a murder of a
British soldier who was shot on Valentine's day in 1979 and they ended up in prison along
with me as well, so their case has been thrown out of court since as well, same detectives
were involved in my case ….. I think it was just symptomatic of the whole police force, or
service, or whatever they want to call themselves, at the time, that….. it was rife right
across it, that they were just… they wanted to right up the books, clear the books and the
easiest way to do it was to get people like myself to admit to being involved in stuff that
we weren't involved in. [02:32:52:07] So…. in recent years, I've been involved in….. with
groups like the Peace and Reconciliation Group and the Alexander House Interface Group,
it’s being going about 10 years and it started off when the young people between both
communities were fighting with each other and it was getting very serious, it was affecting
the lives of the elderly people in the area so a large group of people from our area decided
that they were going to take it on –and especially challenge the sectarian nature of some
of it and… [02:33:33:06] I've used my experiences from being in prison myself, being
arrested by the police and helping young people to move away from that, that sort of
violence, that they were getting involved in …and….. The greatest payment for me….. out
of all the….the years is when young people come to me now and shake my hand and say
thank you very much for helping me…. I always think it…. and it really, really rewards me
to see that happening because when I was their ages, no-one stood up and fought my
corner for me and that’s what I do now with young people. I fight their corner for them,
and any young people who are in trouble with the police, I will go and fight with the
police, for them …..[02:34:23:11] I've done it on the streets and I've done it in police
stations …and, and it’s about making change and it’s about ….small change that we make
but it makes a bigger difference to the overall picture here. And I have to say…… one of
the young people that I tried to help, going back after 10 years, it was a young boy called
Ciaran Doherty. Done everything I could for him, tried to get him away from it, and I have
to say for the young people now, the message that they should get is, Ciaran Doherty was
found dead several years ago, he was found shot dead, the person who found him was
me. And I have to say that….. the effect of that to me is that I done all I could for Ciaran
�Doherty to try and get him away from it …. and….. my message to young people now is ….
live your life, enjoy your life, live for Ireland, don't die for Ireland. [02:35:28:23]
Q. Thank you very much.
End TC 02:35:37:22
File ST0026
Part 2 of 2TC
Start 02:35:37:23
Q: What was it like to have that experience of using your body to act out some of the . . (in
the workshop)?
CHARLIE: [02:35:47:19] I've done some of that before, today I found very difficult
y’knowbecause . . . y’knowwhat I said earlier, the story I told earlier. I always say
sometimes my story is not important as other peoples’ and I've had people say that to me
as well. I don't care where people come from, what their story is …or…..or……. how my
story affected me ,everyone's story is the same, my…. what happened to me affected me,
it affected my family, it affected my friends, some of my friends are dead because of what
happened to me. [02:36:27:18] So……. today…it’s good to express it and it’s good to hear
other peoples’ stories, and as I work with the Bloody Sunday families over in London and
down in the Guildhall, in the past as a support worker, I only thought I knew the story of
Bloody Sunday. I got the real live stories from those people during the time I was in
London and the time I was down in the Guildhall, I got their real lives….I didn’t know…..
And a lot of people in Derry didn't know their stories, and still don't know their stories and
I would love to just see it just come to…. [02:37:11:13] That they would have some sort of
closure because the pain, I feel, for them is still there. And today to me, seeing some of
what Kay said as well…..is….. I relive it, I relive it every time I hear it, and I relive
their…..the pain that I've heard them talk about in the past, every time I hear it.
[02:37:37:16]
Q: Is it important to have an opportunity to tell your story?
CHARLIE: [02:37:41:18]. . . Well until I had an opportunity to tell my story, I was always
looked at as a terrorist, a gunman, a bad guy, and not understood. But I always say that
some of what happened to me is a microcosm of what has happened right throughout
Ireland from the 1920's onwards where people suffered, people were divided and people
suffered pain because of struggle and because of what happened in Ireland and I always
say if we can unite and work together and hear each other’s stories, and acknowledge
each other’s stories, we can go a long way. I've heard a lot of stories and I've
acknowledged stories and people have acknowledged mine as well. I went to Israel in
2008 ….and…. when I told my story, the first person to come up and …. shake my hand and
say he believed the story was a policeman, not a former policeman, a policeman and he
�acknowledged it and he said that he will make sure in his duty and his work in the future,
that no-one will do, on anyone else, what was done on me, or anybody else in my
community.
Q: [02:39:00:20] Ok thank you very much.
End IV
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Charlie McMenamin
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Charlie McMenamin
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Charlie McMenamin (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
23 November 2013
Format
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PDF version of transcript
Language
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English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3461
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/201cde3064df753cc64e20202c5f086f.pdf
e26de95d9caaeea557c36a0d7e6688e5
PDF Text
Text
24 November 2014
Interview with:
Eamonn Baker
Venue: The Junction, Towards Understanding and Healing,
Derry/Londonderry
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: 00001406
TC:
00:26:30:00
02:37:04:18
Q: Talk to me about your experiences of the troubles
EAMONN: OK . . . I think in the time that we have got here I am going to be, maybe,
relatively rapid in what I tell you . . . I think the most brutal and in some ways the most
devastating experience I had was the experience of, of Bloody Sunday. And..... I was
twenty... I was a University Undergraduate at Queens and I had come down for the march
and I, for reasons that I am not entirely clear about, I had decided that it would be a good
thing to be part of the rioting group in . . in William street. So there’s still photographs of me
with . . . with. . sometimes a white hankie around my face throwing stones at the army at. .
on William Street and then utter panic when I realised that the army had actually come in
.... I’m, I’m hesitating about using the word ‘invaded’ which is a loaded word but they have
come in so, to escape I need to run back along William street, take my left along
Chamberlain street which takes me at the end of Chamberlain street into a courtyard. .
where already Jackie Duddy has been shot and is dying, so Jackie Duddy is horizontal on the
ground and in some strange way I cannot admit to myself that he has been shot and is
dying. It’s like... or.... my knowledge of such a situation before is rubber bullets so I don’t
have knowledge or maybe don’t want to admit, it’s like some kind of psychological process
of denial, this man, and I see the blood on his chest and I am aware of suddenly switching
into the present tense . . . this, I wouldn’t say he is writhing, I don’t think he’s moving that
fast and there’s people gathered around him and there are people screaming, shouting at
each other and then there is more shots and I run to my left with some. . You know, as a 63
�year old man looking back there is some part of me saying I am leaving a man who’s, who’s
dying, to save my own skin and as I run left, there is a man called Mickey Bradley who’s also
shot in the back and he actually says, in my recall, he says I am hit, you know, having
watched loads of movies I thought when someone was shot they’d be propelled forward
and they’d hit the deck but he didn’t, in my recall, he . . . I would say more stumbled and I
had the white hankie which I would have used then as people gathered around him,
somehow there was this . . thing that maybe we could apply a tourniquet, but then there’s
more shots and we run like hell. So leaving Mickey Bradley. . who didn’t die, lived. . only
died a number of years ago, so he was one of the wounded of Bloody Sunday . . Jackie
Duddy and Mickey Bradley are both Creggan people, I am from Creggan. . and run on left to
get out between the high flats that look out to Fahan Street and the high flats that are
directly facing me as I am running and there is a gap there that I can get out. I know it you
know, I know the area and there ‘s more shots and a man called Pius Mc Carron who was a
neighbour of ours in Creggan, also a Creggan man, ah there’s bullets hit above but I don’t
quite know what’s happening, I think he’s shot but it’s actually masonry has deflected off
the. . or been shot off the wall, hits him and he’s knocked down and as I am running
through this gap a man called, who was the same year as me at school . . . a First Aid man
comes through and people are screaming at him and there’s people shot, down there you
know, get out there and I be thinking why would you go out there and I run this way and I’m
ducked down and because there is some sense that they might be shooting from the walls
across you know, from the walls, and I see, I see Thomas McCarron who’s Pius’s brother
and I say Thomas . . ‘your brother’s shot back there’. And the two of us come back . . to
where we thought Pius was, where I thought Pius was, but Pius was gone and then we
came back, I don’t remember any more about Thomas. I see Thomas frequently, he is a
great Derry City Supporter, he’s now in his late 60’s and then that silence that people speak
about descended and . . . . I walked home.
Q: At what point did you, were you aware that they were actually shooting bullets. A lot of
people talked about, they weren’t, they didn’t believe it!
EAMONN: You know, you know I think, I think one of the things that. . hasn’t been
mentioned here today is the word trauma. And so that 20 year old, who’s me 43 years ago,
this is a trauma. And somehow that trauma is not admitting this reality. . when I get home, I
am the second eldest of eight children, and when I get home, at least half my family were on
the march, the Civil Rights march and. . so in the house, then already the army are
beginning to get their story out and there's this story that there's a riot and they respond
and there's a story that they’re being shot at and they respond and it’s already coming out
that maybe, I think maybe, early reports that three people had been killed. . so at that point
you know, we as a family in a small council house in Creggan, are becoming aware that
there’s . . there is death here. . not, I didn’t really get that when I saw Jackie Duddy , Jackie
Duddy’s by the way. . older brother Billy would have been a virtual contemporary of mine, I
would have played football with him. . the Duddy family lived directly opposite the Bishop’s
Field from us. Bishop’s field is where the march started from and such high hopes. . so we’re
all, including my Brother-in-Law, are all in this kitchen and everybody is through other . . .
and I think one of the other bits about, you know, I can feel this as I am speaking to you,
Oliver, I can feel this in my body, this recall . . . and I have stopped myself being tearful here
but I want to tell you one other thing . . because I think going back to your question about
�storytelling, there is a, there's a formula which I like, it’s in storytelling, there’s what I am
willing to tell, there is what I might tell, and there’s what I might never tell, so in each
storytelling occasion people are working through what, what am I willing to tell, what might
I tell if I'm safe enough, and what will I never tell. And for years I never told what I am about
to tell you now, but I started to tell it about 2009, which is, if you can imagine a small
kitchen with 11 people in it, that’s including my Brother-in-Law, my daddy witnessed me
throwing stones and . . .he said to me, something, my Daddy was a quiet man but he said . .
what were you doing down there and I didn't hear it like as a, a search for facts because he
knew what I was doing, I heard it like an accusation because already the news was saying
British army responds to riot, I was part of the riot so already some part of me was feeling
some guilt and when he asked me that question I exploded and I thumped my Daddy as
hard as I could thump him, which led to a . . . a massive squealing, roaring, I have four
sisters, my Mother, my Brother-in-Law is saying . . you want to fight, fight me. Come
outside, my Brother-in-Law was a tough man God Bless him, he’s dead now as well, and my
Daddy who was 51, he was 51, he was 12 years younger than I am now but I thought he was
an old man, he said I’m not staying here to be assaulted by my son and he put his coat on
and he left the house and I run down the street after him and I said ‘Daddy don’t be going
down there, don’t go down there’ and he says ‘I can’t stay here to be beat up by my own
son’ so part of this story is you know, you asked the question and Maureen answered the
question about victims and perpetrators, suddenly I went from being a pictim, victim . .
pictim’s an interesting word, to being a perpetrator. And what I didn’t know, what I didn’t
know was, y’know, y’know, y’know as an adult speculating, is that my anger towards the
army, to what I had seen, the trauma of what I had seen, and where I dumped it was on my
poor defenceless Daddy. And the first place that I ever told that story was in Theatre of
Witness . . that’s the first time I had the balls to say, ‘here’s a very . . significant addendum
to this story of working class Catholic niceness attacked by a British army . . and the utter
shame of it, the shame of being around funerals and thinking ‘I beat my Daddy up, I became
like the British army in my own house ‘ . . .
Q: Do you want to stop?
EAMONN: No I don’t actually . . so one of the things about that story is this, that if you
went to Creggan and you arrived in Creggan in, in February ’72, everybody was incensed,
that I knew, and the only story, you know they say the only . . the only show in town, the
only story in town, the only story in Creggan which was a big, big estate was ‘this is what the
paratroopers done’ and then the next bit of the . . ‘this is what the British Government
done with Widgery’ . . so it was like . . a classic . . this is my story, this is what happened
but somebody tells you this didn’t happened, the state says ‘this didn’t happened’ so your
story is squashed down and it would have been really, really healing if the British
government had the balls to say we did a wrong here, it would have saved so many lives . .
and I think . . part of my, in the 70’s, would have been smitten by the contagion of that
story which meant that even though I didn’t . . take up a gun, I didn’t speak out against men
and women who did, so you got a community. . like me and I’m not really meeting, you
know people, there’s a mythology that at University you meet people from other
communities . . my sense of University was I hung around with Derry people, not
Londonderry people, Derry people who, and we told each other the story . . so storytelling
becomes healing when you hear the other story and when the others hear our story and
�then we can maybe have one story . . And one of the most significant moments for me in
that journey was hearing Maureen’s story, which was in February 1992. I was 41, it was 21
years later . . when Maureen said to me that on her, on the first day of her husband’s work
as an RUC officer, he was shot by the Provisional IRA, very first day of duty. He went into
the, into the RUC having worked for the Housing Executive, so he was about 26 or 27 and
suddenly you think, my God here’s someone telling me the impact, you see, it was almost
like schizophrenic, I was throwing stones at the British army but I don’t think I was taking
account of what would happen if one of those stones hit somebody so what was happening
when those lead bullets hit people, a lot of the killing that was done in the city, men took
cars . . hijacked cars and then they drove them back into Creggan where I grew up and
actually still live and I did not have the empathy to understand that this damage, this
trauma is being done from our community and other people . . Maureen said ‘I was eight
and half’ . . she didn’t say it here but she was eight and a half months pregnant, this is in
the public domain and that really . . . ‘eight and a half months pregnant I am stood beside
my husband who’s lost his left arm’, he’s in intensive care, and she’s, she’s the first child
and suddenly it arrested me that this is the impact of this, this is, so in terms of the story of
the Troubles that’s a big moment where I start to see a truth other than the, the narrowed
truth that I was, sharing . . exporting.
Q: I look at . . I have in my time been through something similar but not as big as that, being
shot at and I was about 12, 13. I remember it didn’t feel real I’d never been shot at before
and I’m curious because I’ve heard this story many from many different aspects, I’ve
listened to Kay’s story of her experience or listened to her experience through her brother.
EAMONN: Kay Duddy?
Q: Kay Duddy. Yeah. I’ve heard others, I’ve actually edited programmes on it, and was one
of the few programmes after Widgery to actually show , so I’m curious that no one’s ever
explained that and I think in some ways it comes to the point of why you got so angry with
your dad because you had never experienced being shot at before.
EAMON: I’d never experienced seeing someone on the ground, these are streets that, I’m a
Derry man who loves his city and seeing someone on his back gurgling blood, never seen
anything like that before. I’d seen riots before, I’d participated in riots before but I never
seen anything like that. I never seen Mickey, Mickey Bradley shot in the back, I thought Pius
McCarron was shot you know, I’m 20 years of age, I have, I have no great knowledge of
psychology, so what I imagine is that, that there is a, it’s like when there’s grief, part of that
process is denial and there’s part of that process is anger and so there’s some kind of instant
denial, is this, is this. . can this be happening and then there’s a whole history, there’s a
whole history you know, when my Daddy asked that question, there’s all the twenty years
previously of the relationship with my father and mother, is, is evoked, you know, some
sense that I was the Black Sheep of this family even though I was in other ways you know
the great White Sheep, the great white hope up at university, first person ever from my
family right across the family being at university, you know. I, I, every time I meet Billy
Duddy, I . . we played football together, we talk about football but I have the greatest of
regard for him and the Duddy family, I know Gerry as well, I know the niece Julianne
�Campbell who’s a great, was a journalist, it’s very webbed into what it means to grow up in
our area. It, it was not just Jackie Duddy, there was William Nash for example, shot dead,
his father shot, so I think in total there was five people from Creggan shot but for me that,
y’know, watching the funerals, we lived very near the church but also having a sense of my
own family, that this 20 year old has gone on such a violent attack on his Da and my Daddy
was a quiet man, he wasn’t a, he didn’t do corporal punishment, physical punishment.
In the Theatre of Witness process I got to share this story, not in a, to an audience but to the
people in the, in the class I was in. And Teya Sepinuck invited me to reflect on what was the
medicine in my story and one of the things that’s in this, is that when I was a child, my
Granddad grew up in the Bogside, oh no, he don’t grow up, my Dad grew up in the Bogside,
my Granddad grew up in Donegal. I used to go from school to meet my, meet my father
who worked in a laundry in a low paid job, he’d come sweaty to me Granddads and then me
and him would have walked, walked to Creggan and sometimes we would have stopped at a
wee, a wee huckster shop and I would get, he would give me thru pence and I would get,
and I would get Rowntree’s Fruit Gums and we would share them on the way home to
Creggan, on the way home. . . So I would .... maybe prefer to remember that time.
Q: Do you not appreciate that you were actually traumatized by something you had not
experience before , you had no idea what you were facing, you were a young lad but you
were pretty innocent then?
EAMONN: Yeah . . well you see . . that whole, many, many people, Maureen, Jim, I am
sure know that many, many people would say that the word trauma and response to
trauma and counselling services, psychological support, therapeutic support, didn’t exist . . .
I mean I went back, I was at Queens. I went back to Queens the next day and lots of the
people from Creggan were drinking heavy, we were involved in a protest, there was a big
meeting in the Whitla Hall, I remember being surprised that a friend of mine . . he’s now
died as well Seamus Hegarty died, just a couple of years ago from leukaemia, I remember
him standing up and protest . . speak and I thought, Jesus I never saw Seamus Hegarty
speaking at a big public meeting before. I remember, we, we drank, we protested, we
picketed the English Department. I remember being so angry that Professor Braidwood
went on doing lectures on the Monday and we were out, outside, Queens with a placard
saying ‘University should be closed down’, something like that. We occupied the eh, was it
the Vice Chancellor’s office, we were angry, but I didn’t know the word trauma, I didn’t , I
just felt an enormous shame that I had, y’know, I didn’t see it in a context that this may be
happening in other homes, this may be happening around the town. Actually what comes to
mind is in the November before Bloody Sunday, I was home from Queens at the weekend
and I was writing a paper on, believe it or not, on the Baroque influence on Chaucer’s early
poetry, so I’m sitting in this working class house in Creggan writing this on a Friday night,
this is Free Derry and the, the horns go and they say, the horns means that there’s some
incursion from the army or the police and I drop my quill, haha, and we run up Iniscarn road
because that’s what people did to be involved in a riot which would keep the army out and I
run and I got, and the army had gone. I got to this point and the army had gone and then
we’re stood about y’know with bricks in our hands which are now redundant, that’s not
quite y’know, we dropped the bricks and, somebody said it’s terrible about that woman, it’s
terrible about that woman and I say, what woman? They say there’s a woman shot dead
�and so I had the neck or the curiosity or something and I went into the house and somebody
said you know the woman’s laid out dead on the sofa and I remember sitting on the bottom
step sort of like a no man’s . . I can’t go in there, I don’t have the courage to see but I’m not
ready to leave and then her son came in who had been at a dance, it was a Friday night and
he knew and his body all contorted, he did something and he came in. I got out. The house
was identical to our house stairs, come in the door, front door up the stairs, I think maybe
what I didn’t have was the skills, the vocabulary to say in a way how that impacted on me.
That was November the 6th, 1971. Kathleen Thompson was the person who was killed and, I
went back up to Queens and read my fucking seminar paper on the . . . and I, instead of
saying Baroque, I just said brock because brock is a word we use locally for food scraps that
we would gather and my tutor, it’s not her fault, like, how was she to know. It was Edna
Longley, Edna Longley, wife of Michael Longley and I just kept saying brock because I
thought what is this got to do with the price of chips and again maybe it means that I didn’t
know how to communicate it and there was no one around saying what’s that like to be in a
house where someone has been shot dead in the back yard. So there may be a connection.
That was November, Bloody Sunday was the end of the following January, I think I might
stop there now.
Q: Definitely?
EAMONN: Yeah.
Q: So you’ve just told a very strong story, a very important story to you. Is that storytelling
for you important and if so, why?
EAMONN: I, I think Maureen spoke some of what I, what I think about storytelling, that it’s,
that it’s almost like storytelling is part of who all of us, it’s in our DNA, and it’s like our blood,
that that courses through our veins and when there’s a blockage in the blood moving
through our veins we need to find a way to release that blockage. And I have found, as
someone reared in a family where, communication in at a deep level or at a, even at a, at a
middle level was not overall encouraged or supported, to find myself in places where
someone says what has happened in your life? What has been troubling you and then they
listen with authenticity and they’re listening for what you or I can share, and my, quite
usually my experience of that is, that I feel a bit lighter and going back to Bloody Sunday, if
the only story . . the only show in town, the only story in town was the Bloody Sunday
story, and the paratroopers did this, somehow, somehow it seems to me that us people in
Creggan didn’t quite realise that there were people with guns and bombs, getting bombs
ready and loading guns and going down and killing other people, it was like, I don’t know if
you would call it a double think, but we are the victims, this army is the Army of Liberation
and we don’t see the havoc, the devastation, the trauma that’s been inflicted on people like
Maureen . . so there’s a monocultural story, if I went up to, my local bar’s called The
Crescent, its round the corner from me in Creggan and I said to someone tell us about . . . do
you remember the Kingsmill massacre and I’m guessing that most men and women would
say ‘what was that? What was that? When did that happen, I don’t remember that? If you
were to say, what do you think of the UDR, burning bastards, they were involved in . .
collusive killings so if those people up there have had the opportunity to meet someone
from the UDR community or meet someone from Bessbrook who says this was what it was
�like, this is what happened in January, I think it was 1976, so the storytelling becomes a
vehicle for people to tell their . . as Maureen put it, their narrative truth, or their subjective
truth and as I, as we hear each other, then something different happens, and I just
sometimes wonder is it psychological healing or is it healing of the mind in a way that I’ve a
different perspective, so there’s a line that’s change the way you look at things and the
things you look at change, so I am deeply privileged to hear from Jim in this very room last
Wednesday, we had a woman who was in the UDR for 23 years, her husband David was a
Commanding Officer in the UDR unit that was blown up by an IRA bomb, he survived though
he was injured, his sister Heather, Heather Kerrigan was blown up and killed, and his
colleague and friend Norman McKinley was also blown up and killed. Most people in
Creggan and this may be a crass generalisation but it’s how I see it, would not know that,
they would not know the suffering that Irene has endured, that bomb was in July 1984, she
said here publicly, so I’m not talking behind her back, she said ‘I’ve lived for years with a
husband who has post traumatic stress disorder, I have lived in the shadow of his sister who
was killed’. So storytelling when people from diverse communities come in and they’re
willing to go deep you know, so go back to that, you know, what you’re willing to tell, what
you might tell if the situation seems okay and what you will never tell, it might be that
where we want to be is what you might tell because there’s risk involved and even . . I never
told, never told anything about attacking my Da on the bloody night of Bloody Sunday, I was
so ashamed so, a situation where you might bring, go deeper, that’s when I think it can be
healing and people can leave a room and they say, you know what, let’s make some actions
that will make this a better place, maybe just one thing, two things. And we don’t . . y’know
we don’t, we don’t present ourselves as therapists so if you . . came and you told a story
and there was a sense that maybe (you) would need to go to a counsellor or some kind of a
therapist, as we would say, there is that facility, there is that opportunity, we maybe don’t
have the money for it but there are organizations like Wave just up the street who are able
to provide that service for you and that’s why, I would see my job with Towards
Understanding and Healing, in a way, it’s like a vocation, it’s not, I would do this job if I
wasn’t being paid but it’s good to be paid at the same time, yeah.
Q: But is it, are there people out there who don’t want the stories to be told?
EAMONN: There are people out there for example former paramilitaries who can only tell
what they’ve been convicted for because if they were to say, well actually I killed those four
people as well then they would immediately, I guess there would be a process where they
might be before the courts again. There were people, my Daddy, I’ve said this a number of
times, he was a quiet man, he wasn’t the kind of man who was up for sharing his soul, and
that’s how I was brought up.
Q: Sorry, there’s interference on the radio again . . you were just saying about your dad,
who was a quiet man?
EAMONN: Well . . your question was . . are there people who don’t want to share their
stories.
Q: It was more . . . are there people out there who don’t want stories to be told?
�EAMONN: I think, I may be wrong, that there’s an agenda where, for example, Republicans
don’t want the story of their war to be told in this dirty detail because they present
themselves largely speaking as a war of liberation and so some of the dirty detail is, where
republicans killed nearly 60 percent of the fatalities. And I wonder is that also true of the,
the number of people who were injured, it was like forty thousand, sixty percent of forty
thousand, so there’s you know, there’s this talk of contested history. There’s talk of
revisionism, there’s the fact that, so many murders, I think it’s something like two thousand
or maybe more murders are unsolved and the people who are the perpetrators of those
murders, largely speaking are, are not saying I will give you the truth, that’s why in here last
Wednesday we had Irene Kerrigan because the broad picture is she’s unlikely to get the
truth of what happened in July 1984. Who, who triggered the bomb that killed her sister inlaw Heather, who...that killed Norman McKinley and, and injured her husband, and many
other deaths in the Castlederg area. She’s not going to get that truth and what I’ve learnt is,
that’s her Bloody Sunday, but it wasn’t a Bloody Sunday ‘twenty minutes of shooting’, it
was ‘we’ll take this man out, take this man out, take this man out, we’ll kill this woman’ and
it was systematic over a number of years so that people, were saying who’s going to be next
so she came in here and spoke to about forty, forty five people including Jim and she said
this is my truth, this my testimony. I’m not going to get it in the courts but this is what it
feels like to be me in this marriage with our children now and I’m not likely to get justice so
we’re setting up situations where there’s the possibility that she could get some healing, it’s
not going to solve the problem when she goes back and her husband David is still
traumatized and acting out and volatile and she said all that here so I’m not betraying her
confidence, that it’s a moment of significance for her and there are people who don’t want
to hear that, because their position is and I think it’s a position, if you change the way you
look at things, things you look at can change, their current position is UDR equals collusion
equals the killing of that, you know Anne Cadwallader's book - Lethal Allies, that’s their
position or their worldview, and where we need to get to is where both things are true . . I
think. My belief is that the UDR were collusive in some killings and the IRA had a shoot to kill
policy, that was their raison d'etre, to kill, you hear now in the surveillance that people from
distant community are talking of getting a killing it’s presumably the same language that
was used in the 70’s and 80’s and 90’s.
Q: What about the smaller stories what about the people who are, just felt they, just sort of
witnessed it, that it affected them, are they important?
EAMONN: Absolutely, I mean there’s, at the moment there’s five of us in this room.
Everybody has a story, it’s, as I say, it’s part of our, like our blood, it’s part of our DNA and
y’know people who are into psychology talk about creating the core conditions . . . where
people can share of their story, so they can leave, if you like, that weight behind and it
happens y’know when we’re working with groups, you might, I’ve had a group where . . not
Kay Duddy but Ann Duddy was in the group, and there was a woman in the group whose
mother was shot in Bloody Sunday, one of the, I think the only woman to be shot in Bloody
Sunday, and her brother also died in a bomb, he was in the Provisional IRA, the bomb went
off, he was one of two people to be killed so this woman is looking at Anne and Margaret,
and she’s saying I don’t have a story compared to this story so she’s doing the compar –
comparing and then when she actually gets involved, as the days evo-, y’know move from
week to week, and she tells us she was friendly with a community policeman who was shot
�dead by the Provisional IRA, she tells us that her son was friendly with a guy who was in the
Provisional IRA who was killed in a bomb, he was looking to plant and he left, he left the, her
son left Ireland to live in, in England to get away from here so in a sense she lost her son
even though he wasn’t a direct casualty of the bomb. And . . and more. You quite often find
that people maybe minimize. . they’re doing an internal comparison ‘my story is nothing
compared to the story of the Duddy family’ and yet there is truths and realities that have
deeply impacted people because going back to what you were saying earlier, how was I, as a
twenty year old, going to accommodate this vicious traumatic reality, you know I didn’t ..
didn’t even know the word trauma, I don’t think, so, people who witness bombs, you know
that notion that the abnormal became normal because somehow we were able to fix
ourselves internally, you know, so walking through Belfast you put your hands up and be
searched, that become normal. I’m working on a book of interviews and a woman talks
about, in this particular interview she talks about going to school and she’s going to a
school, it’s an oxymoron I think to refer to a school as a Protestant School, but she . . she’s,
men in balaclavas stop the bus and get all these school wains off the bus, she’s, its Grammar
school in the Antrim Road, and so somehow that’s the normality and in some ways she
needs to speak about that, so I welcome all stories, y’know I think that’s, that’s what needs
to happen, all stories are welcomed yeah.
Q: What about the kids? Do they understand?
EAMONN: Sometimes what the kids have got is the garbled version of history, that has
been, maybe unawarely transmitted by the father and I’ll give you an example of that. I
have a daughter, a very bright daughter who I’m sitting in a cafe with my daughter Gráinne
and a friend of mine and his English partner, she’s just arrived and we’re in the Sandwich
Company down the Strand Road and somehow we get to talking about the Orange Order
and I expressed some liberal sentiments about the Orange Order and my daughter who
might only have been ten, she says ‘Daddy that’s not what you said when you were driving
through Limavady and you couldn’t go on to Portrush, did you not say something like ‘who
the fuck do they think they – she didn’t say that - they think they own the road’. And you
know I remember doing work in a local secondary school and after a recent, after a bomb
here in the city and I said, in this corner will you stand if you’re against the bomb, in the
middle if you’re not sure and this corner if you’re for the bomb . . and there was two people
stood in this corner and one of them would have been part of a, a, what they call a Repub old style Republican family in this town, and is involved with the Dissident community, if not
actually involved now that he’s a bit older, he stood for election. . actually the same guy
comparatively recently in the council elections. Some young people haven’t a clue. I was
working last Wednesday morning in a, in a, again what is called a Protestant school, I’m not
sure these terms are helpful to us. And I said to the young people what would your view be
on the flag protest and some of them, they’re young, thirteen, fourteen, said what flag
protest? And we of course had planned on the notion that we would have some kind of
workshop on cultural identity and it was almost like we need to switch gear here, yeah, and
I think Maureen was right, it, you can’t . . . I wouldn’t make a broad generalisation about
young people, there are young people who are studying Politics and History who look at the
Troubles, and there are some young people whose real trouble is this - they’re being
sexually abused, whose real trouble is. . . their Dad’s an Alcoholic and is beating up their
mother, whose real trouble is there’s not enough money to go around, who maybe are
�dyslexic at school and cannot, don’t feel like they’re achieving, who are being bullied. You
know there’s a lot of, and part of our work is to say that. . y’know I sometimes call them the
big Troubles and the wee Troubles and it turns out that the big trouble for example sexual
abuse at home is more devastating, perhaps that’s obvious, than what was happening on
the streets, and sometimes you know I mean I certainly know people who were abused,
sexually abused at home in what was supposed to be the safe house for the IRA . . man. So
maybe generalizations are not, are maybe not helpful about young people. The, the thing to
do is to ask young people, yeah, get them in here, yeah.
Q: One last one, do you have hope, for reconciliation, in the sense that both communities
will come to some understanding?
EAMONN: You know I do, I do and, and, and I would love if our leaders, our political leaders
could behave in a way that incarnates that capacity to reconcile, that I would love if the two
top men Peter Robinson and Martin McGuinness could find a way of more obviously
connecting that would be like a role model for us all and in the want of that then, what
needs to happen is that I connect with, with Jim, with Jim’s brother Roy, that, that we work
at the grassroots level up and that we make things happen. There’s an organization up the
street, no not up the street, up the stairs, called the Foyle Women’s Information Network
and they bring like a hundred women together and they’re from all sorts of backgrounds
and they . . they do activities together, which . . which warms my heart, it warms my heart
that Irene Kerrigan would trust, in a sense would trust me enough to come into this room
last Wednesday, we’re just finished a project where we, it’s sort of a Smashing Times like
project, we’re hearing stories from people in the UDR, men and women, wives and sisters.
And we were able to create a drama which was called Inconspicuous Gallantry and then take
that out and validate the experiences of those men and women who were in the UDR, all of
those things and the work that you’s have been doing, all those generators of significant
conversation, give me hope. When I see Gregory Campbell with his, with his yoghurt carton
at the DUP conference the other day, part of me gets a bit despondent, how is that
supporting peace and reconciliation, now, he is saying well our culture’s not being respected
so I listen to that but I want him to respect my culture as well, you know, I have a lot of
Irish language, I probably could have done some of this interview as Gaelic and to think if
you don’t, if I don’t have hope, where, where am I going, where am I going, where are we
going.
Q: Fair play.
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Eamonn Baker
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Eamonn Baker
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
10
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Eamonn Baker (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
23 November 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3454
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/98a3e35737e747fc59469d5376785221.pdf
379c3c7f31bf60a693c218369b39a88a
PDF Text
Text
25 January 2014
Interview with:
Fiona Bawn Thompson, Actor and Facilitator and Choreographer
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
Venue: Cavan
File No:
Start TC:
ST0103 (File 1 of 4)
01:41:36:24
Q: Fiona maybe start with a little bit about where you grew up and your family
FIONA: [01:41:48:00] OK I was born in Craigavon …Craigavon Area Hospital and I lived in
Portadown for the 1st year of my life and then moved to Craigavon, and I, I've been
living there ever since, for the past 30 plus years (laugh)…. so that’s basically where I
grew up and Craigavon, Portadown, Lurgan are all very….. very central to a lot of
Troubles and a lot of things that happened throughout the course of the Troubles.
[01:42:11:15]
Q: Was there anything significant happen in your life to do with the Troubles?
FIONA: [01:42:17:09] Yeah…there was a few incidents that happened and a few things
that I heard of …of people that were quite close to me, but because I was young it was
…. I was kind of sheltered away from it - there were 2 incidents that stood out
particularly, one was when my school got blew up by a 2000lb bomb - the police station
was beside my school, and when they blew up the police station and my school got blew
up with it. And the reason why that annoyed me so much was because we were in the
middle of a school play, and I was one of the main parts in the school play and I had my
big solo song/piece and central character and…. of course we couldn't …… this was 3
days before the, the school play went on so the school play never went on [01:43:00:21]
it was never shown and our school then…. of course after that then we were a little bit
happy because our school was off for an extra week or two (laugh) after Christmas, or
before Christmas, and then we got moved into mobiles, and it was …it was sad in a way
because there was a lot of memories and a lot of things within the school that ….that,
that were obviously not there any more then, because it was blew up. [01:43:26:17]
�Q: Were you anxious going back to school?
FIONA: [01:43:36:17] I wasn't really anxious going back to school no… now the bomb - I
lived half a mile away from the school so….. it was a 2000lb bomb was pretty, was pretty
drastic… our windows cracked and our dog, we went.. running outside, my daddy says
to get out cos the house was shaking so we all went running outside and when we went
outside we could hear the shrapnel - the whistles of the shrapnel overhead so my daddy
said get inside [01:44:03:11] cos he thought the house was going to fall down, so we all
had to run out, but when we went out there was just like missiles, we could hear things
whistling over our head and falling so we went back into the house. And I was very
anxious at the time, because my, my brother was over playing, playing pool in the local
recreation centre and from where we lived at that time I could see the smoke coming up
and I thought, I thought that my older brother had been blew up basically - I thought it
was the recreation centre …..so…that was a very anxious time - I remember being
completely distraught four about half an hour at least until….because then you didn't
have mobile phones so no-one could ring, no-one knew where it was, and no-one knew
what was happening. [01:44:41:07] so until I, until my brother was ok, then everything
was ok after that really – y’know everything else was irrelevant because….. as long as
everyone's ok, y'know material things can be replaced. [01:44:52:16]
END FILE
File No: ST00104 (File 2 of 4)
Start TC: 01:44:57:03
Q: Maybe you could talk about another incident?
FIONA: [01:45:04:07] The other incident was a little bit more serious, it involved the, the
murder of 3 … 3 young people and it was in the estate, quite close to where I lived, and I
heard the shots the night before, but I didn't realize what had happened - it sounded
like a bin lid closing so… didn't t take any heed but back in them days, if you heard any
kind of a bang, it, it - regardless of what age you were - you kind of went - was that or
was it this or was it that? You always… to me anyway, I was always on edge …… so I
heard these, these shots, these bangs but wasn't too sure about it, until the next day
that we found out that it, it was… 2 young girls and a young man had been murdered.
[01:45:48:04] And they'd been quite brutally shot… and what sticks out in my mind most
of all is that… when I was at my cousins house and we, we were looking and we seen…
the local residents were cleaning up the … the blood from the aftermath of it …. from
the young man that was shot. And it stands out pretty vivid in my mind that kids were
just playing around and there was just buckets full of soapy water and …. it was just…..
they were sweeping this … this blood away and I remember it just was something that …
it was like something you'd see on TV, on a film y'know you don't realize that things like
�that happen so close to home. So I remember that always has big significance in my
mind, and….. it’s just one of those memories that obviously will…. will never leave you.
[01:46:32:03] But I know that a lot of people at the same time would have had more…
more drastic encounters and there was lots of young girls - there was a young girl got
shot ….well a few young girls got shot, around my age as well, so for me growing up it
was always… I was… I was always anxious if I was out or if there, if there was a sound or
if you were out by yourself or walking home… on a dark night y'know ….nowadays you'd
be afraid of …. I don't know… different things… y'know but then, if I was walking from
my friends house by myself at night I was always quite anxious about cars driving past
and …because you just didn’t, you just didn't know … *01:47:10:05+
Q: Do you know the reason the young people were shot?][
FIONA: [01:47:13:21] Because of their religion ….that’s it….they were…. the two young
girls were only I think 16 & 17 so…..yeah it was just because of religion.
Q: Does that anxiety of then carry over to today?
FIONA: I don't know, the community I live in and …. just the country itself is…..it’s, it’s
obviously at …a lot…. at a better place than what it was years ago, but at the same time
there's always a level of uncertainty, y'know there's always .. y'know you can't be sure
that every things ok, or that things aren't going to happen or thing are going to happen
…. *01:48:32:04+ There’s always just that level of uncertainty I would say rather than
anxiousness, it’s just an uncertainty. *01:48:37:20+
Q: What do you think about the games and exercises we use, or that are used and
drama used to promote Peace building?
FIONA: [01:48:47:12] The games and exercises … when, when you have the young
people together …. to try and get young people to talk sometimes is ….is hard….. So the
drama workshops helps to - you bring them to, to a more relaxed place y'know back to
play and back to games and once they become comfortable in…. in the group and in the
scenario, and comfortable with myself…. drama…. the exercises allow… allow the young
people that outlet - to be able to …. to be able to express themselves creatively y'know,
so a lot of the times you may have … they may have things they've heard of, or they
want to say but are afraid to say but through drama you've a certain…. You’ve, you’ve,
well not a certain, but a bigger level of freedom, you're …. you can express yourself, you
can tell stories quite openly and [01:49:37:21] it’s usually within a safe environment,
where everyone has the same level of sharing and understanding, and even with the
group I worked with today, some of the stories were very personal and a lot of the … a
lot of the kids in the group or a lot of the young people in the group, got quite emotional
by them, y'know and they're all best friends - they're all … you can see …maybe not…
they're all very close friends and you could see that … they, they hadn't realized that
about each other before [01:50:06:12] because it hasn't been told before, and through
�drama…and, and these exercises, they have … they’re able to have this voice to tell
those things. [01:50:17:14]
Q: And is that important?
FIONA: Of course it is yeah.
Q: Why?
FIONA: [01:50:22:08] Why? Because a problem shared is a problem halved basically ,
y'know if … if they're able to tell their stories then they're able to … to have some
recognition and understanding of … of their stories …. and people then are able…… to,
to see their perspective on things…. so it’s about that …..it’s about that, that sharing the
memories and about remembering and people acknowledging the fact and
acknowledging each others stories and opinions and points of view, so if ….y’know it’s, a
lot …. a lot of people …. in the North have a….. y'know have, have a real grudge because
no- one… no-one wants to hear about it anymore and if you're able to tell your story – if
you're allowed to …. to have those memories then it’s… it becomes a little bit more
released, all that tension. [01:51:11:05]
Q: What role does music and dance play particularly with young people?
FIONA: [01:51:20:03] Music and dance is very current …. so ….y’know everyone has their
…. Their pop stars …… and fans of….of different, different people and stuff, so I think
music and dance is, is obviously a big thing that young people are interested in, so
sometimes straight drama as well, whenever you … whenever you can even merge them
together it brings… it makes it more current, so that it’s not just this is a memory that’s
in the past that we're acting out – it’s… you're bringing it in to the future or you're
bringing it in to the present time…and…..Dance is, dance I think in general is, is brilliant,
it just has a completely different outlet of its own, and…. and the song … y'know the
group I was working with today as well - the girls were just singing on, on their break
and ….. you know to have that…..it’s just another outlet (laugh) I don't know…..
[01:52:15:10]
Q: Using dance and rap - does that reach a different audience?
FIONA: [01:52:27:10] Yeah I think it does because …..Well using dance and rap makes it
…. makes the content more current and makes it more appealing to a young audience
and… it gets them more involved then in it as opposed to straight drama - whenever you
can integrate all those arts and, and make something more interesting, kids are
obviously going to be more interested in something that’s very current to them, and
something that they're interested in … [01:53:41:06] Well through rap, you know you
have your, your current artists that… that would deliver messages through, through
songs, through rap and … and that…y'know kind of resonates more with the kids, kids
remember words, remember lyrics of songs, remember words of raps and … and they
�do cling onto those …much more y'know those are things that can stay with them so,
buy putting it in that, in that format and delivering it to… to the young people as an
audience its going to stay with them more, they're going to take more away from it than
just a straight …..a straight drama piece [01:54:17:19]
END FILE
FILE NO:
ST00106 (File 3 of 4)
FIONA: Well like most other killings and murders in the North, it was to do with religion
and unfortunately for the very most part it was the innocent people that got affected by
that…. *01:54:51:13+
END FILE
File No:
Start TC:
ST00107 (file 4 of 4)
01:54:54:06
FIONA: [01:55:26:11] There was a school I was working with in Belfast, and part of the …
sectarian… realization was that sectarianism occurs when you try to imply your views on
other people - and everyone had accepted this, and everyone had said yes we, we're not
sectarian at all, and everyone had, had agreed through all the exercises and … and
groups and get in to this group if you think this, and into this group if you think that and everyone had agreed that everything was wrong until it came to nationality
[01:55:54:14] and whenever we started talking about nationality, and in the North of
course it’s very… you could be British, you could be Irish and you can be Northern Irish you've got a choice of 3 different nationalities that you can…. that you can choose from
essentially …. so this group of, of….. this one particular …child or young person in the
group had….was completely adamant that everybody …. everybody was the same
nationality as her, because they lived in this, in this country, and it was trying to get
that… and it turned out that the rest of the class actually were saying to her but you
can't - and she was completely unmoved by this because [01:56:35:11] she just didn't
realize that… she couldn’t, couldn't see that…. That she was trying to …. that this was
her implying her opinions on other people y'know I says you're entitled to be that
particular nationality … other people are entitled to this nationality, and y'know we are
entitled to be whatever, y’know whatever nationality you want to be, whatever you
think, y’know that… that’s the nature of where we live…and she just couldn't see past it
….just really couldn't see past how… anyone … could even consider being a different
nationality at all, and y'know was, was very, very .. no, well just tell them because that's
the way it should be because that’s, that’s what nationality we are….and…. it, it, this
debate it went on for so long and…. had the rest of the class actually were just …. and
they were all in the same area - they had to say, y’know to try and get her round and
that, but at the very very start she'd agreed that sectarianism was… y'know ok you don't
�imply your views on anybody else, everyone is entitled to they own opinion - until it
came to that. [01:57:434:17] and then no-one was … everyone was this and there was
no…. there was no let up from that it was this nationality and no other one in this
country. So there was other incidents like that do occur and it’s y'know I'm not to say
that this, I didn’t tell her she's wrong - no-one else told her …y'know she was wrong but
we were just trying to get her to realize that… y'know everyone has different views,
everyone has different… and it’s the same with … with racism and religion and things
like that, everyone has their own …their own opinions and that’s all to do with human
rights and people are entitled to have those. [01:58:04:22]
Q: And do you think young people are more open now to look at diversity in all areas?
[01:58:15:01]
FIONA: Oh I do think so because even in the same school there was lots of things up
about human rights and diversity and I mean it is – it’s very much integrated into
schools, I find that sports are being integrated more into schools, y'know some of the
catholic schools play rugby, some of the protestant schools play Gaelic, whereas
whenever I was growing up, it was, sports were very much segregated …. and now …. I
can see its more inclusive - even the likes of, of football teams that would be considered
predominately protestant or predominately catholic are now being … being integrated
by different, different ones in the community because …. some of the kids now are, are
thinking - now they're better than them ones so I'll go with them, y'know so they're
moving towards now the more competitive element of it as opposed to that’s a catholic
team, I'll play for that, or that’s a protestant team, I'll play for that. So in that sense, I do
feel that you know more people are, are coming round in that way y'know…..
[01:59:10:10] And in the schools that is implied as well obviously.
END FILE: 01:59:40:20
End of Interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Fiona Bawn Thompson
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Fiona Bawn Thompson
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Fiona Bawn Thompson (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
25 January 2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
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English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3455
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Jim Arbuckle
Date Type
Publication, Submission, Completion date etc.
30 May 2014
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Jim Arbuckle
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
10
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Jim Arbuckle (<em>story transcript</em>)
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Interview-with-Jim-Arbuckle-Transcript-The-Memory-Project-Smashing-Times-Theatre-Company.pdf
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
external
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3453
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
30 May 2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/7dfbfde58863eec61f497614c11b1edd.pdf
99126856270581159ba86d8beffcc013
PDF Text
Text
23 November 2013
Interview with:
Kay Green, neé Duddy,
Venue: Gasyard Arts Centre, Derry
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: ST0027
TC START: 02:39:06:06
Q: First of all … its similar stuff to what Charlie was talking about, but maybe you could
just start and let me know what was it like to get your story acted out in the way it was
done through the workshop?
KAY: [02:39:22:03] it was something really different, when I arrived today I was a bit
apprehensive - I wasn't sure, but it was amazing, it was … I felt it was very, very powerful
and very emotional and it was good to be able to do that and see the other people's
reactions and… I thought it was amazing *02:39:42:23+
Q. And did you learn something from it?
KAY: [02:39:45:17] Aye I learnt that there’s different ways of dealing with your emotions
and with oppression and depression and you know I thought it was a very, very
worthwhile afternoon. [02:39:57:16]
Q. Maybe you could start just telling me where you were born, grew up, your family?
KAY: [02:40:11:24] I was born not far from Charlie, I was actually born on the Lecky road
which is, as you know, just down the street and um…. then my Daddy was among the
very first to squat in the Springtown camp which was originally I think it was an army
camp, to get housing, a lot of people had done it at the time, and then we subsequently
got allocated this 3 bed-roomed mansion in Creggan Heights [02:40:38:16] which we
thought was just absolutely amazing as there was 17 of us, 15 children and my Mammy
and Daddy, this 3 bedroom mansion was just a wee bit on the small side so we
�eventually moved then to Central Drive to a maisonette because it had 4 bedrooms and
ah…. not one of my favourite moves now I have to say because I loved living in Creggan
Heights - the people in Central Drive were wonderful but I just didn't like the building
(laugh) and as it was at the heart of the Troubles, we were very, very close to everything
that was going on [02:41:17:10] But it was funny at times because we'd be sitting in the
sitting room playing cards and the shooting would have started and we had to get down
onto our hands and knees and carry our cards through to the back to the kitchen, and
went on continuing playing cards - it had become part of the way of life, also where we
lived there was an empty shop below us and as far as I'm led to believe it was used as an
arms store [02:41:42:20] so we were kind of sitting on a time bomb plus the shop that
we lived above sold paraffin oil or something at the time, so there we were and there
wasn't even a back entrance to them…it was a maisonette, you come in the front door,
up a flight of star is to the bathroom, kitchen and living room, and up a second flight of
stairs to the bedrooms, and there wasn't even a fire escape to the back of them
[02:42:09:14] so as I say, not my favourite place to live, and I cried the first day I stepped
into it and I wonder did I cry bad luck on it, because from there, it was there that my
mommy died in 1968, and then poor Jackie got murdered in 1972 and I thought I cried
bad luck on the old stupid house (laugh) but being… we were brought up a normal
catholic god fearing family, we weren't politically aware, I personally never was, some of
the boys when they went down, and I don't doubt that they would have taken part in a
bit of rioting or whatever…. *02:42:58:18+ On the day of Bloody Sunday, me Daddy
worked in a Hospital in the Waterside called St.Colm's hospital, and it was in a street
called Browning Drive, which was beside….. Isn’t that where Ebrington Barracks is now I
think? So that barracks was there and he passed that on a daily basis going to his work
and I often wondered did he - did someone say anything to him cos he come home on
the Saturday and he allowed that nobody was to go to the march on the Sunday but the
boys disobeyed him, [02:43:27:02] as they do… and…..but that was OK the girls - they
made up the dishes after the dinner and that - but the attitude of the boys left the
house that day was they were going for a bit of craic - it was going to be a good day's
craic, it was a nice, dry, cold day - Jackie particularly was looking fixing his shirt and
saying ‘do you think my girlfriend Bernadette Devlin will think I look ok’? And that was
the way he left the house that day [02:43:57:14] and it was all done, in the best, as the
man says, in the best possible taste, but as the afternoon wore on then and people were
returning from the march, we weren’t particularly aware of anything going on until an
Aunt came to the door, she comes…me Daddy was on night shift from his work, from
the hospital and he was still in bed and she's says Kay we've reason to believe that
Jackie was hurt in the town and we went to, we went down the stairs - we didn't have a
phone at home, the shop downstairs was packed to the street, you wouldn't get in there
to use their phone, so she knew that the community centre was being built at the time
just over the street from us and she knew the watchman and she asked him could we
use the phone and we phoned Altnagelvin and I asked the question, 'was Jackie Duddy
admitted to hospital that afternoon?' and whoever it was - I assume it was a nurse, and
she says who’s making the enquiry? And I said it was his sister Kay - a slight short time
elapsed and she come back and she asked again who was making the enquiry and I said
�it was his sister Kay and she said Jackie Duddy was dead when admitted to hospital
*02:45:16:03+ so… I mean…. I vaguely remember throwing the phone in the air and
screaming and after that then…its a kind of…. everything's blank for near enough 3
days…. um…. I think I vaguely remember going, having to go home and meant having to
go and tell me Daddy what had happened and ….um….. my Daddy's initial reaction was I
warned him and told him …told him not to go … as I say this would have been told
afterwards but at the time I don't remember, I don’t remember - apparently I was at the
morgue, apparently. Obviously I was at home when Jackie's remains was home and I
don't recall that - I don't recall the funerals - I thought I'd seen myself in a photograph
that they had re-run in the papers and the same man that came with the news
[02:46:08:23] said that I had fainted outside the chapel steps and had to be taken home
…so them 3 days is totally…totally lost y'know but Jackie was a happy go lucky young
fellow and it was the strangest thing - he was a boxer but he had a great…he had a great
sense of humour - always used to say that he never really was cut out to be a boxer cos
he wasn't aggressive enough if you know what I mean. [02:46:34:20] He loved spaghetti
westerns, would have been one of his… and he had a few girlfriends…. he was that
innocent and that honest of a young fella - the younger brother Patrick - there was
Jackie, Patrick and Gerry was the 3 boys nearest in age and we always called them the 3
musketeers and Patrick had, after Jackie died, he showed me, he actually gave it to me it was a brown envelope that Jackie had wrote a note to Patrick saying I borrowed 3 bob
from your pocket this morning - I'll give it back to you at the weekend when I get paid
[02:47:18:18] so I mean our Patrick probably wouldn’t even have even missed the 3 bob
as the man says but that would give you an idea of his nature - poor Patrick, god rest
him, died 5 years ago from lung cancer but he died suffering survival guilt and he could
never could talk about …..what had happened to Jackie because Gerry, Jackie and
Patrick had met up at one stage - Gerry had ran on, he says ‘I'm getting out of the road
cos our Billy if he catches me he'll kill me’ - that was the older brother and Patrick was
going with a girl that lived in the Brandywell so he left Jackie to go and he says now you
get home cos this…..this is getting … a bit out of hand here today, and he went on to see
his girlfriend, so he felt that he had abandoned Jackie and left him and…. *02:48:10:08+
and he could never talk about it, never could deal with it afterwards and I think it helped
that his health deteriorated….. so…. for years we weren't allowed to talk about it - it was
unspoken, wasn't spoken about and I think it was my Daddy's way of protecting the
boys from going to join the IRA or whatever or go out looking for vengeance cos that's….
and me Daddy in his naiveté always said these soldiers will get older and their
conscience will start to get the better of them and they will need to tell the truth (laugh)
*02:48:46:16+ but over the years my Daddy died in 1968 or 1985 sorry ….yeah he was
only 68 years old and ah… although for years the march and all was going on, we in our
naiveté thought that somebody would eventually do something about Bloody Sunday get the truth of what happened, but then the campaign was set up and Gerry and
myself took an active part in the campaign representing the family and we were very
blessed that the family relied on Gerry and myself to make decisions for them on their
behalf and if it was OK with us then it was all right with them [02:49:26:24] whereas I
know for a fact that a lot of families have split up over the years among themselves
�because there was different opinions and whatever …. ah….. I've done stuff over the
years that I never thought it would have been possible to do, one being for instance - we
were invited to New York and….. For the St. Patrick’s day parade - I was a bit
disappointed to be honest because John Kelly, Mickey McKinney and myself had to
leave it just as it was starting and go to Washington and I stood in a room full of
Senators and cried me way through a talk - and at that stage I did… I said I'm sorry
for…for being upset but this is the way it is y'know *02:50:14:13+ then when I thought on
it afterwards I thought I can't believe I just done that y'know but it.. somehow it gives
you… you seem to get an inner strength from somewhere and over the years it was a
long hard slog and without support from people like Charlie and the people of Derry,
England, Dublin eventually the politicians come on board and whatever, but it was all
near enough family led with a lot of support and I have to say now the Saville enquiry
…the Widgery farce as it is now known as has been confined to the bin as you know - we
had no actual part in that but the Saville enquiry was a whole different ball game
[02:50:59:13] the opening statement of the Saville enquiry took 74 days and that was
longer than what the ..travesty of the first one was .. to take place …. but over the years
we grew as a family … people were like an extended family and we got to know other
families better than we probably would have done, we gathered support from
ourselves, Cúnamh throughout was a major help to us I have to say - I don't think I
would have survived without the help of Cúnamh being there and they were with us
both in Derry and in London [02:51:37:18] and they were there to pick up the pieces
each day and that’s why then after … standing on the steps of the Guildhall that day, the
only one… there was only one thing that Saville let me down on and that was that I feel
that he… he hung Ger Donaghy out to dry - he didn’t go that extra mile and say that Ger
… he said he was unlawfully killed and unjustifiably killed but he still says he may have
had the nail bombs in his pocket and Gerard's sister - adopted sister was suffering from
cancer at the time and it finished her off *02:52:20:00+ it just….. she went to her grave a
distraught person and for me personally that was the one thing that Saville let me down
on but I think he did as best he could with what he was allowed to….. That day standing
on the Guildhall steps as I say - for me it was like watching a black cloud lifting up from
over the people of Derry, and I felt everybody in this town that had been put through…
they didn't give evidence - they relived the day of what they experienced cos you could
actually… I noticed they were - I was thinking about it today when we were doing ….
when were doing that this afternoon - you could actually see them ducking down as
they were talking - they were back there reliving it *02:53:06:21+ and ah….. for them…..
And for the courage that they showed and the support that they gave us it was amazing
to see that black veil being lifted and everybody was exonerated y'know and everybody
in the town - it was such a joyous feeling that day, that it took me days - it was a few
days after, I was at home by myself and as…I don't know about yourself but most
women will flick from channel to channel and it came on - something that I don't
normally watch is anything to do with politics, and it came on - Cameron's speech and I
sat alone in my own home and watched it for the first time [02:53:45:19] and I cried like
a baby, but it was like crying with joy, and I thought right - what happens now? My
initial reaction that day was - I don't have anything to do tomorrow - I've actually a free
�day tomorrow - nothing that I need to get up and do and then…. I don't know what time
it was had elapsed and the next thing then the PSNI has announced a murder enquiry
and I thought sweet mother of Jesus what now? What do we do? Where do we go from
here? So as I say, the first meeting that I was at to do with this 'Murder' enquiry and as I
say my body went to pieces I just shook… I was shaking, uncontrollable shaking, and
emotional, and Jill Gillespie is looking across at me and saying 'are ye ok? And I'm going
'no, I'm not ok' cos I have the statement from the time stating that Jackie was murdered
and then she's basically telling me on the day that’s not worth the paper it was printed
on [02:54:51:12] so please God that this enquiry - this murder enquiry will not take as
long as the Saville enquiry did, and that we will eventually, eventually - as I says we have
buried Jackie but we have never laid him to rest 02:55:09:03] and for us I think that's
very very important. So if you know any good novena's, please say them!…. that this will
not take much longer because I feel physically and mentally exhausted - I'm just running
out of steam (laugh) *02:55:26:02+ and thank you very much for the time….
Q; Do you think it’s important for people to have the opportunity to talk about their
stories and their experiences?
KAY: [02:55:33:20] Oh very much so - you know the saying – it’s good to talk - and a
story shared is just amazing I think and people need to get a chance to tell their story,
this is..I would be guilty of… it …started inadvertently this way - I always say I speak first
and then everybody else has to talk after ye, but I don't want to be seen to be hogging
….. the limelight - the Bloody Sunday families….. wounded and their initial family don't
have any monopoly on suffering - everybody has suffered and everybody's entitled to
tell their story and its so, so important - and it was a privilege for me today to share in
this story. [02:56:15:02] It’s the first time that Charlie and I have been in that sort of a
scenario that we actually listened to one another - that’s something I have learnt over
the years, is to listen (laugh) and I think that’s important too *02:56:28:16]
Q: Thank you very much.
END IV
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
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Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
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2015
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http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
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12
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11
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Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
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No
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deposited
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Yes
Publication
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Author
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Kay Green
Publication Title
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Transcript of interview with Kay Green
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Dublin
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Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
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Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
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Published on-line
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5
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<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Kay Green Thompson (<em>story transcript</em>)
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Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
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23 November 2013
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PDF version of transcript
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English
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deposited
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3459
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/70a30eebd9b0be1c57c6f98255612110.pdf
768e6dac0bb2dd58c5babceaa2883c01
PDF Text
Text
26 October 2013
Interview with:
Maria McBride, Anne Blair, Sheila McBride (sisters)
Venue: The Mac, Belfast
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: D9000901 (file 1 of 6)
TC Start: 02:17:12:24
Q: Could you start by introducing yourselves, your names and where you're from?
MARIA: [02:17:16:01] Em I'm Maria McBride and I'm from O'Neill Avenue, originally
from O'Neill Avenue in Newry, County Down, Northern Ireland. [02:17:25:15]
ANNE: My name's Anne Blair and I live in Chapel St in Newry, County Down
[02:17:32:18]
SHEILA: I'm Sheila McBride and I'm from O'Neill Avenue too, always lived there yeah….
Q: And how do you know each other?
MARIA: [02:17:39:19] Well we're 3 sisters (laugh) so we grew up in the same house and
I suppose, it’s a bit about what came out this morning, everybody has their own
memories y'know what I remember about something is not necessarily how they
remember something, or I remember more about something and they don't remember
it at all…… but we do ….we do remember things y'know, we did grow up in the Troubles
so [02:18:07:12]
Q: How many is in the family?
MARIA: [02:18:09:07] 6 of us - 3 boys and 3 girls… so the girls stuck together like glue
and…..and we had some… the boys…one of the boys has lived in London for many a
years and the other two brothers are not just as well….so…… we have one brother that
�we get home and we're very close to him and then we look after our other two
brothers. [02:18:36:11]
Q: Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what life was like growing up in Newry?
ANNE: *02:18:48:12+ Newry ….…. I suppose to what it is now…. It’s quite spread out now
and quite…. much more populated than it was…. I’m 49 now so when I was younger it
was completely different then…….. a lot of boarded up window's - I can remember that,
as a young child seeing shops, and it didn't seem to phase you, you sort of, when you
went sometimes to another town or to a small village and that you'd notice that there
wasn't that as much but where you are there seemed to be a lot of boarded up doors
and boarded up windows - cardboards and bits of hard like plywood over windows and
that and [02:19:30:08] yeah I can remember that ….that memory …. and I remember
Bessbrook … I remember travelling out sometimes, my Mom would have liked to go out
to ….. a big furniture shop out in Bessbrook ….. what's the name of it, you know the big
furniture shop in Bessbrook ? I can't think of the name of it now, but Mom liked to go
out there, and liked to look at their furniture - mightn't have had maybe the money to
buy the things in large quantities either but liked to go out and look at the finer things in
life [02:20:05:07] you could say, and I remember going out to it - it was always an ordeal
because there was a big ….. soldiers… there was Griffiths furniture shop in Bessbrook ….
and it was a big ordeal to get into it - it was very much a walled off village because there
was an Army base there, and it was a big base, so you had to go through a lot ….of gates
….and turnstiles, and if you went in a car….. it was just unbelievable - it seemed that
every part of the car was taken out, every piece of the car was taken out and checked
over so if you wanted to go out there [02:20:43:16]…. Before, when you left Newry, by
the time you got back home, you maybe would’ve been only in the shop maybe for,
maybe an hour but you could've been away out of Newry for maybe 4 hours….. Because
it really seemed to be …. they really took your car apart ..or whatever (MARIA) it was a
fortress wasn’t it? (ANNE) Yeah, I can really remember that and I can remember on the
odd occasion when you were there, looking around ye, and it was always to me, it was a
very sinister looking place y'know…… very sinister looking….. it was big dark walls and all
this barbed wire and glass and it was like a fortress *02:21:18:01+ yeah… so I can
remember that vividly, that’s my memories of Bessbrook (MARIA) I can remember the
town being a lot smaller and older and poorer, y'know it was not very affluent the way it
nowadays and it depended what way the punt was - it would sweep and flow and ebb
didn't it? One day we were the rich cousins and then next day Dundalk was the rich
cousin and then Newry was the rich y'know… *02:21:43:09+ all of that y’know and
people coming down and being caught up in bomb scares and things and they'd be
disgusted, and we'd be thinking …. we just used to it y'know(laugh) be used to it weren't
we? We were very acclimatized to it …. And you'd see others coming in and you'd be
thinking it's not right like y'know it isn't right but we were just used to it… you just had
to sort of get on with it. but it was smaller, smaller and older and shabbier when I was
growing up, and bombed out and a bit like what Anne said - cardboard and there were
no shutters really and be all y'know sweeping up glass - you'd always hear glass being
�swept up and [02:22:22:24] window's getting boarded up – y’know it wasn't, then finally
shutters came along and it was…(yes)…. *02:22:28:19]
END FILE
FILE:
TC START:
D9000902
2:22:28:20 (File 2 of 6)
MARIA: The windows didn't seem to get blown out anymore or something, the shutters
sorta saved all that. And then you could see the face of Newry changing … you could see
a wee bit of affluence, a wee bit of money coming in wasn't it, a wee bit wealthier (yes,
yes) (ANNE) or maybe it was …. was it that the councillors that were in at that time ….
that seemed to …… I don't know …… they were into sitting down …… the politicians and
that around certain times, whoever were in at the top the parties at that time were able
to sit down maybe at times and …. with maybe the police force and that and maybe talk
with the people as well and get members from different areas to come and sit down as
well *02:23:12:23+ to maybe…. somebody started that off ….. and there was….. I don't
know …. sometimes you would look and see there was a wee bit of cohesion there, that
people were trying to sort things out, and then that would go for a while and then there
would be some big major….. something would happen y'know…. that would disintegrate
that and that would go all … away that it would be….. not good at all, it would be
very…..eh……. very dark times….. *02:23:43:03+ (MARIA) and I think because we were
like the tunnel from the South to the North, we were like the thoroughfare if you like…
and y'know…. and when those murders happened in Gibraltar y'know we knew it was
coming through our…. we were going to be hit by it and …… I can remember that …it
was really palpable sort of feeling…. or everybody was horrified about what happened
and then we were steeling ourselves for it coming down through Newry and was there
going to be trouble? and ….. *02:24:13:13+
Q: I don't know about the murders - maybe you can tell me?
MARIA: [02:24:15:18] There were a……. they said there was an active unit or….. that
there was a cell working in Gibraltar. I don't really know that much about it, it’s just my
memory was there was some kind of a cell that they had been watching and …. they
shot them in a forecourt so I think, I was thinking they should've wounded them and
everybody else was thinking that they should have wounded them but they took them
out completely - they hadn't got a chance - they just murdered them in cold….they just
were murdered, and my community would have been absolutely up in arms about that
[02:24:49:10] and outraged that y’know that they couldn’t have wounded them or they
couldn’t have handled it some better way……. and then you knew then on top of that
they were coming through your area, and the fear of that - what was going to be the
backlash of that [02:25:03:21]
�Q: Who was coming thru?
MARIA: [02:25:05:09] The bodies were coming through from Gibraltar into Dublin and
then (SHEILA) From Dublin right through into Belfast, (MARIA) and every town along
the whole countryside was out …… I can remember that, can you remember all the wee
towns and villages the whole way down through from where the body come in were out
and in Newry as well and then right the whole way down….. and it was I suppose a
people coming together to show their opposition to what had happened, but it was like
anything, it was a number of things….. *02:25:33:07+ a number of years of atrocities, and
you could find something in some other community that was done that could have been
handled differently as well so it’s just….. weighing up things, but just I can remember
that having a deep impact and then if I'm right - isn't that where it, they went on then to
murder …… the people who got mixed up in the funeral by mistake? (ANNE) yes down in
the Falls… (SHEILA) it was all around that time. it was an awful… bad, bad time yeah it
was you're right …. I remember too the …. I remember the Bloody Sunday *02:26:07:05+
the week after it, they had a big march in Newry - a civil rights march and they all came
from America - all the civil rights people came and there was an actress - she was an
English actress (ANNE) Vanessa Redgrave? (SHEILA) Vanessa Redgrave and they were
all…. I remember us standing down on the Merchants Quay watching them all
[02:26:24:10] and they had all the big bann….. all the coloured people were there - all
the civil rights people, and we couldn't believe it – it was like big stars - although it was
awful what they were doing, it was…. it was right after the Bloody Sunday and I
remember my mother coming down, Anne was only a wee baby in the pram, and my
father saying 'don't be taking that child, there'll be trouble there today' and my mommy
took hankies, cos if they used the CS gas you could always…. my mommy wet hankies
and she put them in the pram and we went down, we walked it down… I remember
walking it down….. and they DID fire CS gas and you could have your wet hanky and put
it over your mouth - there was trouble at it too [02:27:03:07] it was whenever it was
over, but I always remember Vanessa Redgrave and all these famous people in Newry,
the following …. Y’know the following week like y’know…. it always ….I thought god
y'know…..yeah… (MARIA) and then just on that too, we, we recently … in more recent
years had what was on the grounds of McCann's bakery in Newry, a museum, Bagenal’s
Castle museum was opened up there in recent times…. *02:27:30:10+ and they did…
they had like an exhibition and we happened to be up looking at the exhibition and
there was a big huge bevelled wall you know is was just not a straight wall but there was
like a big black and white....
END FILE 02:27:44:15
FILE: D9000903 (3rd of 6)
�MARIA: [02:27:44:16] the whole way around the wall, about 20ft x 20ft - huge big black
and white image and Bernadette Devlin standing with (ANNE) a young Bernadette
Devlin (MARIA) standing on top of all this rubble with all these people around her in
Newry with a loud hailer, and weren’t we able to pick out our younger brother looking
up at her like that y'know and his only his tiny face, he would have been maybe 10? So
we were pointing out ones we knew in the image and then we started to look at this
image and we realized that it was (SHEILA) the only child in among all the adults
[02:28:18:02] wasn't he Maria? (MARIA) He was there looking up at her like that so it
was real iconic times for everybody y'know - I can't remember Bernadette Devlin being
here….. no I can't really remember that but I can remember running with mommy and
then running back with the pram and then running forward with the pram, and running
back and I think that must be what Sheila’s talking about, that we were at that march
and the Army or police must have been moving in [02:28:41:21] and they were pushing
the crowds back and I think that must be that pushing back and forward, I can
remember waves of going forward and back the crowd, yes….. (SHEILA) my father kept
saying to her 'now don't be taking that child out, don't be taking… and I kept thinking
right we're going to get caught in trouble here [02:28:55:19] but we're just, mommy
ploughed on with the pram, she didn't care, yeah cos after what happened in Derry it
was just…. it happened on my birthday, I always remember thinking all them people
died that day on my birthday couldn't…. y'know it was News flashes coming on all the
time, and I kept thinking god y'know ….. it was terrible…… yeah (MARIA) and your
brothers would get stopped…. (yes) they would get stopped and you'd be raging y'know
you'd be going about as a raging child like you just knew it wasn't right [02:29:25:23]
and we had a brother who wasn't well and he was vulnerable but at the time you didn't
know what meant, you just knew he was … y'know he had to be protected and all…. and
they used to throw the lunch out of his box….. on the road and things y'know, it was
really…… y'know when the Army would stop him, they would search him and frisk him
and it wasn't right, y’know, cos he wasn't well …. but they would take… somebody
would say.. they seen them taking Eugene's piece out of his box and throwing it on the
floor, throwing it on the road [02:29:54:18] and jumping on it and things like that
y'know, so you used to be bubbling away inside and you knew it wasn't right but you
didn't know why people were doing that on each other…… no cos we didn't know really
about much politics, and then I suppose when I went to Big School we were doing Irish
history and me and my Daddy would have huge debates about that stuff, you know
about what had happened and why things were the way they were…. *02:30:17:14+
y'know… but like for example my daughter's 28 now and if I asked her what was the
Troubles about, she wouldn't have a clue, not a clue what the Troubles was about
because I didn't bring it into my house, I didn't talk about it, and even though she grew
up in it and our children y'know our nieces and nephews and all our family grew up in it
- we didn't say oh that's terrible, that happened because this and y'know…. it just didn't
happen in my house so they didn't have any….. no idea what the troubles was about,
and still to this day don't [02:30:49:00] if she studied her history y'know that she's
currently doing then she'll know it, but she doesn't know the nuances of it, she only
knows that there were Protestants and Catholics and they were fighting and people got
�killed. But she doesn't know anything more than that, behind it, back story, and that's
been good. [02:31:06:22]
Q: Would you have known any protestants growing up?
MARIA: [02:31:10:01] No …. I wouldn't have now (SHEILA) only the man that came at
Christmas time to kill our turkey (laugh) he took a turkey into the house on Christmas
eve and it was in a bag - it was still alive, but he…I remember he was a Protestant and….
y'know my father knew him from drinking in Forrester's, he would have knew him, and
he came and he killed the turkey, and he since died that man now, but he would have
been…. no we didn't really know any Protestants no….. the way schools were….. and we
were in the majority in Newry - we were always the majority which… y'know (ANNE) but
we were very privileged when I looked back although I was the youngest. [02:31:49:12]
We were very privileged in that the main care giver for us was our mother and she was
never biased, never racist, so she never, ever, spoke in the house about any par….about
any religion in particular doing this that or the other, she read newspapers, front and
back, when she got time, which wasn't very often so she was well read up on current
affairs and what was going on in Ireland at that time, both North and South, but she
never…. tried to put her opinions onto us….. she wanted her children, to a certain
degree, to find out for themselves about their neighbours [02:32:31:20] that lived in the
country with them she didn't make it her business to polarize us - I can remember that she would have protected you, if you needed to but at the same time she was not a
woman to….. put neighbour against neighbour - she would always try to tell you right
from wrong and to be…. go Christian about it, do it in a Christian way, so she was……
[02:32:59:24]
END FILE
FILE D9000904 (File 4 of 6)
ANNE: *02:33:00:00+ ….. very, very good in that sense, I can really see that…. to her……
yeah she was very good, very good at doing that…. *02:33:08:13+
Q: Would you have ever been influenced to become involved? Ever considered
becoming involved?
ANNE: [02:33:18:00] No I would never (SHEILA) no….. as I was going out to my sister's
when my sister lived in Jerretspass, I was driving out to the house and the Army…. you'd
always be nervous coming up to the checkpoints even though you done nothing wrong,
you know your heart be racing when you were coming to the checkpoints, I would say
most people would say that, but I remember the soldier saying…. he says I want to ask
you a question - I thought I wonder what he's going to ask me? …. he says em….. 'what
do you think about us being here?…. what do yous, what do you think about us being
�here? And I thought … I just says to him ' it’s not normal' …. It’s not normal, he says '
right' he says ' I wondered what to tell the people when I go…. go back home' he says '
what do you mean? I says it’s not normal, people walking about with guns and that
around the shops in Newry …… y'know…… *02:34:08:11] (ANNE) How long ago was that
Sheila? (SHEILA) Oh that was….. you were maybe not long out there Anne in Jerrets …. I
remember I was going out the road and I just… he just thought ' right ' he says that’s
interesting (ANNE) I suppose that leads into an area that I lived in? I lived in an area Jerretspass and all my neighbours would have been Protestant and I would have been
the only Catholic in it and there was only 5 houses there - it was 5 mile out of Newry
[02:34:30:05] and….. we were moving…….. both my husband and myself were Newry
people so we were moving out to this area to bring our children up out in a country area
rather than…. we were coming from a housing estate out, and from the day and hour
that I went into it, I never found better people, at Christmas time, coming to the door to
give me gifts in for the children - I've just the two children - at Easter time, at different
times - that never would have happened in Newry - what I took from them were that
they were very Christian people [02:35:02:05] good living people, they were simply into
their family, the peop.. neighbours that I had, their family, …. and that was it…. their
family and if you needed a hand they were there. That's the one overriding thing, and
that's the way I brought my two children up - my children were about 12 and 6 when we
moved out there and it was an excellent….. for them, to see…… that these people here
didn't go to the same chapel that they did or the same schools, they were the only
children in the row, my two children, the rest, there were no children, they were all
grown up and away, so that was good… I was glad that they were able to see that
[02:35:48:13]
Q: And did they have the 12th marches?
ANNE: [02:35:52:06] Well the next place to us would have been Poyntzpass - I lived in
Jerretspass which is just outside Newry and it was 5 mile and then 5 mile on from it was
Poyntzpass, and again, beautiful mix of people, from both communities that got on so,
so well …. So, so well …. and …. then there was that awful atrocity that happened out in
it- an awful crime - an awful crime that happened there, and….. they would have had,
from my memories going back, they would have had the bunting up at both times of the
year [02:36:31:12] on St. Patricks day they would have been bunting up or when Down
won or Armagh or that y'know, Gaelic teams, they would have had the bunting up for
that, and on the 12th of July there would have been the bunting up, in Poyntzpass this
was and there was never, to my knowledge, there was never, we lived there for 13
years, there was never any trouble, there was never any problems with that because…..
I think the mentality in that particular village at that time too was…. there was so many
fields around them - they were hard working people, they were in again to their family
to bringing them up doing the best they could do, and they wanted their children to be
brought up the same *02:37:14:06+ y'know so they didn't have the……that was really
what took their whole day up 24/7 y'know so ….. and in Jerretspass, I think maybe the
�first year that I moved out there might have been bunting up, but I think after what
happened in Poyntzpass there was never bunting up again in Jerretspass.
Q. What happened?
ANNE: [02:37:36:05] It was very subtly done,
Q. What happened in Poyntzpass?
ANNE: [02:37:38:20] There was a shooting in Poyntzpass, a shooting in what would have
been a wee pub that would have been there a long, long time and people from both
communities would have went into this pub, this was your typical….. wee snug pub I
would call it, just a wee pub where people went into maybe one night a week, 2 nights a
week whatever, it was like going into your corner shop, into the shop on your street for
your newspaper that they went in there…. and they maybe had a drink, or they didn't
have a drink - it was the sort of a place for conversation, conversation flowed lovely…
[02:38:15:20]
END FILE
FILE D9000905 (File 5 of 6)
TC [02:38:15:21+ …(ANNE continued ) ….. lovely atmosphere in it and….. there was a
shooting - there were two men shot in it, one, each man was from both communities,
one from each community, one Catholic and one Protestant….. and it was absolutely…….
oh I don't know, it was …. I couldn't put it into words….. what those people felt like at
that time when that awful atrocity came to their… *02:38:22+
Q: Was it sectarian?
ANNE: It was, I think so, I think so….. (MARIA) and they were two best friends from both
sides of the community. (ANNE) It was sectarian [02:38:52:23] (MARIA) so it was around
the time - you know that tit for tat going on? And one side was having something done
and so the other side ….and it was around Greysteel and all of that (ANNE) thats right Greysteel… (MARIA) it was all around that, pub and club and bars being hit and night
clubs and things like that so it had shifted at that… it was a very big shift going into a
community and going into a definite place to get somebody, it was much less random,
[02:39:18:07] I felt, and those 2 men were shot, and they were best friends – went, they
lived together, worked together, socialized together, and the two of them were shot
together, and the whole community came in at that didn't they? (ANNE) Yes it was
awful….. (MARIA) everybody - it didn't matter, religion really didn't come into it at that
point, and for the grieving families y'know …… but it had a huge impact on the
community, and in…. in Newry as well…. It’s not far from us y'know? [02:39:47:11] So
�it…… honed people at that point to try and do more and do better and step up to the
plate and y'know stop the violence…. y'know it really did…. it was coming closer and
closer all the time. [02:40:05:08]
Q. Would it have it come into your estate when you were growing up?
MARIA: [02:40:07:07] Yeah….. ,Q: the violence?} yeah, they would have been building
bonfires….. building barricades and things and pulling down parts of the area we lived to
make barricades and cars would have been taken off people and burnt out and you
wouldn't have been able to drive a car down the hill or up the hill or …. And all the
road….Y’know I remember coming out of school, cos my … I just came out the gate of
school, turned right, turned right and up the hill and there was our house, and the
school was on that hill [02:40:39:06] and I can remember seeing all the ground and the
road burnt like a big burn hole in the ground thinking oh that’s terrible ……. but not the
fact that a car had been burnt and it was possibly somebody's livelihood, a van, that
they used for work with their tools…. it was all very… it was almost sometimes the
community turning in on itself y'know it was…. crazy times, y’know…. but you'd hear
bombs going off, and sirens and the fire alarm, fire brigade, you just think to yourself
god I wonder where that is? [02:41:11:06] It was so matter of fact….. (SHEILA) sometime
too the Army - you could hear them coming in on the TV - we could hear the police we'd be listening in the bed downstairs - they'd be a room downstairs - it would cut in
on the… we could hear them - the time that the Radcliffe’s - there was 2 fellas went in
and they set it on fire - 2 men - young men - it was very sad and the shop is all wood and
they set it on fire, and they couldn't get out then, they set it on fire at the back I think,
and then the fire come right through and they were trying to get out and somebody said
the Army was watching them and they didn't even break the window - that was the
whole talk at the time [02:41:47:23] that, where the Army just stood there and didn't do
anything but I don't know if that’s true but we could hear that all coming in on the…on
the TV - cutting in about something Radcliffe’s, Radcliffe’s and then the next morning……
there was two of them that didn't get out, cos the whole place was all wood - they
didn't think, they thought they could get out the front, but that was an awful thing too
y’know [02:42:08:14] yeah cos the Army came on it at the time and they saw the flames
and all but … I don't know - somebody said that they didn't help them and that was
awful…. but y'know, God I don't know …… (MARIA) and you were always terrified of the
Paratroopers and you knew their beret, you knew their beret and you knew what the
front of the beret looked like . . and everybody in our community knew what they
looked like [02:42:29:22]. We knew when it was their tour of duty, when they were
coming in again - well I did anyway I don't know about yous girls ? (yeah …yeah) and you
always knew when the purple berets were in, you were like in for the diggin's - wasn't
going to be good….. (ANNE) you stayed close to the house … you didn't stray too far,
yeah you sort of stayed close, more closer to your house and you would have been
more aware of where your brothers were maybe, keeping an eye out, you know things
like that yeah you have felt that a bit [02:42:59:08] of a threat.
�Q. Why?
MARIA: [02:43:02:09] Cos they were the platoon were in when Bloody Sunday
happened and so they were marked forever….. forever will be marked for that y'know
…. and anybody that’s from my community will always… if you ask them who were the
platoon that was in on Bloody Sunday and I'd be shocked if anybody couldn't tell you
that so they were burnt on our brains that they were the ones that done that and they
were these high flying (ANNE) people maybe felt that they'd no conscience (yeah)
they'd no conscience about what they did (MARIA) but really there was…..
END FILE 02:43:31:16
FILE D9000906 (File 6 of 6)
TC [02:43:31:17]
MARIA: Bad on all parts… you know as an adult you can see that but back then when
you're a young person, you don't know that and you just see it as a lump of thing…a
per…. A, an entity …… but….. that was always a lasting memory for me, I could draw you
the beret, I know exactly what it looks like and I'm not an Army person at all but it was
to be on the lookout, I mean you seen it you were terrorized by them cos they were…. in
my mind they were this…. high octane group of people who were.
SHEILA: Killers.
MARIA: All singing, all dancing…. they were powerful, absolutely powerful above all the
other brigades (yes) (SHEILA) more vicious *02:44:09:04+ you would have said… people
would have feared them more…. there would be different regiments coming and we'd
be looking at their hats to see what they were wearing - the Scottish would have a wee
thing on their beret here, a wee feather or some sort of wee thing, different, we'd be
saying, I wonder what the name of that regiment is ? But when it was the Paratroopers
yeah they were like purple with a wee badge on here… but people, after Bloody Sunday,
people would have been very wary of them [02:44:32:23] yeah with their boys being out
late at night yeah cos they just thought they weren't good….. *02:44:39:16+
Q. When the British soldiers came, they came primarily as protection for the Catholic
communities, what, was it Bloody Sunday that turned all that? How were they received?
ANNE: [02:44:59:03] Do you remember when the tide turned from them being…
(SHEILA) it was all tea in Belfast, they kept showing that, y'know they were making them
tea and they were all glad to see them cos I think all these houses got burnt in Bombay
Street, the whole row of houses, people all had to leave, they were all put out of their
houses and then…. things started going wrong… the young ones I think started firing
�stones at them and things just started going wrong. It wasn't normal, the Army being
there and I think the young ones just started firing stones at them and stuff and then it
would escalate and then they would kill people and *02:45:34:01+ and then…y'know it
just seemed to… (MARIA) I think it was a short term problem - it was to be a bit of
sticking plaster and then… it was, I mean if you had asked anybody back then including
them, you're going to be here for x amount of years, they would have laughed, because
they were literally to be put in, calm the situation down - a peace keeping force - here to
rescue everybody as the Catholics saw it, here to rescue all the Catholics…. Oh I don't
know what, why people thought that, and I can't give you one reason for why there was
a shift but there was a definite shift *02:46:10:01+ ………but I have feeling that there was
an upsurge and an uprising of people at that time and ….. it was like a political thing - it
was to do with the Troubles but it was to do with (ANNE speaking over in B/G) it was the
vote and…. yes (MARIA) yes it was civil rights and one man one vote and y'know lack of
housing and all of that, it was like a revolt, it was like a …… a time of revolt…. people
wouldn't tolerate any more and I think that really….. the climate changed, people were
warming up to the idea of….. we can get out on the streets here and do something
about this y'know we can. [02:46:44:20]
Q: Do you think it will ever go back to that again, where do you think the future's going
to be?
MARIA: [02:46:48:00] No I don't think …… I personally don't think it will go back to it cos
there's too many people on the side of wanting it to push forward (SHEILA) no we look
forward now don't we? Not look back…. (ANNE) but there's always going to be
anarchists (SHEILA) that’s the touble we seem to be stuck in the past y'know…. too …
like y'know….. no we wouldn't want to go back to that again…. no ….. definitely not, cos
a lot of peoples are leaving now and emigrating, they're leaving every day from Dublin
airport, all the young ones and they can't get jobs and…… we're losing at lot of people
and…… these people will not be taking . . . y'know money in for to keep the work here
like y'know *02:47:26:19+ anybody that’s wanting to start jobs here it’s not….. y'know it’s
……. we need to move forward really y'know.[02:47:36:07]
Q: Is there anything else you want to say?
MARIA: [02:47:39:03] Well I would just like to see more women in politics (laugh). I
always bang on about that but I think y'know, women have a particular place to …. to
play in this part of the world and their… y'know …. for whatever reason - well I
understand the reasons why they don't, why nobody gets involved in politics here, cos
its like crazy, y'know its enough to put you crazy but….. hopefully we're moving into a
time of peace now [02:48:05:12] and y'know and that women will start ….. y'know
young women coming up through the ranks will start to get… garner support and have a
voice y'know…. and bring their skills in politics, whereas we're really…. bereft of that
it’s….. it’s mostly men making political decisions. (ANNE) But I think a lot of that too has
�to do with women helping women……. women seeing women, no matter in what walk
of life they’re in, as their sisters and enabling them and empowering them, sometimes
women, depending on how they are brought up they can, if they see another woman
*02:48:40:09+ eh….. trying to better herself…. they can feel…. y'know that its ….
[02:28:47:12] END FILE
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Trancript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
12
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 October 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3460
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/892d5acf5199122b096c768baf4ceb5e.pdf
0d40bc468368ad9eac75657c02c80e73
PDF Text
Text
6 October 2013
Interview with:
Peter Conlon
Ex-Member of An Garda Síochána, Ireland
Venue: Abbey Arts Centre, Ballyshannon
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: D50013
Start TC: 06:38:41:07
Q: Just tell us where you were born, Peter.
PETER: [06:40:19:15] I was born just outside Clones, an area in County Monaghan
unaccessible by road through the county, it was along the concession road between
Cavan and Clones, and to get to or from it, you had to travel through Northern Ireland.
And maybe for the information of some of the younger people - the concession road
was a road where you could travel from one part of the state to another through
Northern Ireland without stopping, otherwise you had to go by the customs post at the
time and produce your logbook and have it stamped in and out…[06:40:55:24]
Q: OK so you were used to the fact that you were on the border with the United
Kingdom, so when you became a Garda and got posted in this area, you were used to
that life?
PETER: [06:41:13:21] I was, yes I was familiar with the border life.
Q: And would you, how would you describe your upbringing?
PETER: [06:41:19:18] Well I was brought up on a farm and I went to the local National
school, I cycled to the Secondary school in Clones, and I went through Northern
�Irelandtwice on me way to and from school and then I joined the Guards at 20 years of
age. [06:41:43:00]
Q: So you would have been aware of Nationalism as opposed to Unionism? Was that
evident in your upbringing, in your education?
PETER: [06:41:59:21] Oh it would, and around the neighborhood and in fact my next
door neighbors would have been Church of Ireland, but there was very good
relationship between people from the both religious sides in the area and there was no
problem at all. [06:42:15:08]
Q: And where was your first posting as a Guard?
PETER: [06:42:19:22] After training I went to Granard in County Longford and I did over
a year there and then I went to Muffin County Donegal which is just on the outskirts of
Derry city, so it was, you could say back home again to the border. [06:42:41:10]
Q: Then your posting to theBallyshannon area just as things started to heat up in
Northern Ireland in '69?
PETER: [06:42:52:07] Yes I come to Ballyshannon as a Sergeant in 1969, and the
Troubles in Northern Ireland hadn't spilled over to the border area at that stage, sure
the strength of the station here at the time was 1 Superintendent, an Inspector, 2
uniformed Sergeants, 8 uniform Gardai together with 1 Detective Guard and a Guard in
the Superintendent’s office - clerical officer. [06:43:20:05]
Q: And that mushroomed very quickly then in tandem with the Troubles?
PETER: [06:43:26:23] Thefollowing year it wasn't so busy, there was some odd . . there
were odd bank raids the following year and checkpoints were set up during the day, and
checking people…it inconvenienced the locals, being stopped and checked but it wasn't
so serious. But a couple of years later things…. deteriorated and…. the police station in
Belleek which was just across the border, across the river, was being attacked from the
Republic of Ireland - it was only a matter of 6 or 700 yards from the border, and shots
were being fired across at the police station [06:44:10:05] with the result a Garda
checkpoint was placed out near the border at, near Belleek. It was backed up by some of
the Irish Army, there was another checkpoint placed at Ballyshannonbridge, and it didn't
have armed backup except on occasion of a raid or some problem in the area, with a
result the strength of the station increased to 5 sergeants, and over 50 Gardai.
[06:44:43:24]
Q: And on the other side of the border, were there as many RUC officers in the area?
�PETER: [06:44:50:24]There were a good number of RUC officers in Belleek, but they
didn't do a lot of patrolling I would say, the patrols probably come from outside areas
like maybe Kesh and Enniskillen - it was more a holding station at that stage.
[06:45:06:20]
Q: What were relationships like between the Gardai and the RUC?
PETER: [06:45:10:07] We didn't have much contact, we just, you would have phone
contact - if an incident happened you would be notified and . . but there was, there was
no face to face meetings [06:45:22:06]
Q: So you didn't know each other very well?
PETER: [06:45:23:21] No, you didn't, you just knew the voice but there wasn't much
contact otherwise. [06:45:28:14]
Q: Was there hostility?
PETER: No there wasn't no… we got on well but it was just the policy at the time that
you didn't meet one another. [06:45:39:10]
Q. So what was life like here?
PETER: When I come first it was a quiet town, there were very little crime, very few
public order offences and it was a town that didn't need an awful lot of policing, In fact
there were very few patrols out after 12 midnight –and the south of the county was
quiet. There was 1 Garda patrol car and 1 motorcycle operating from Ballyshannon
station, covering the full district form Bundoran to Killybegs so it was basically a crime
free area.[06:46:21:19]
Q: And that changed?
PETER: [06:46:26:02That changed, there was a lot of problems ….. when there were
armed robberies and cross border attacks so it changed completely. [06:46:37:04]
Q: Was Head Office sensitive to the increased pressure?
PETER: Well they obviously were when they put permanent checkpoints at the bridge in
Ballyshannon, again out near the border at Clyhore. Of course the bridge at
Ballyshannon was the only exit or entry point to the Republic without crossing the
border through Northern Ireland so it was very important I suppose to have a check on
the bridge owing to the circumstances. [06:47:14:24]
�Q: You said before that solving local crime was relatively easy compared to political
motivated crime - explain please?
PETER: 06:47:29:12] Well, you, if an ordinary crime happened in the town, it was
normally solved, but if you had some political crime out on the border, it wasn't so easy.
People had a fear of talking to the Gardaiand I suppose you could see the reason
why,and they would feel under threat from some of the subversive organizations
[06:47:59:04]
Q: And you understood that?
PETER: [06:48:00:16] Yeah I would have understood that.
Q: I suspect through Intelligence you probably knew who the people were but were
unable to put a case together?
PETER: You would know some of the activists and some would come in from outside
areas but you'd have a good idea of who was involved but…. you would have no
evidence. [06:48:24:09]
Q: Tell me about the armed robbery that occurred right on the border?
PETER: [06:48:28:09 It was December 1971, we got a report that there was an armed
robbery on Belleek bridge. At the time, the workers in Belleek pottery were paid on a
Friday, the cash was obtained from a bank in Ballyshannon and taken out to pay the
wages. When the 2 officials from Belleek China arrived at the bridge in Belleek, a car
crossed the bridge and blocked their way….a raid was carried out and we were called
out [06:49:08:23] to the scene. I arrived out together with another Sergeant and a
Guard, we discovered that the car was just on the border - if you go from Ballyshannon
to Belleek, there’s a brass stud in the right hand side of the bridge, and, indicating the
border, about 6 or 7 yards further towards Belleek there's another brass stud. The
Fermanagh County Council had tarred the road down as far as the stud on the right
hand side, the car was actually in on that tarmac but the front wheels were in Northern
Ireland, the rear wheels were in the Republic [06:49:52"19] there was a discussion with
the RUC sergeant about the location of the robbery - it couldn't be established which
side of the border the raid took place in with a result that is was decided that the local
engineer would be called and he would decide where the crime took place
[06:50:13:02]. He arrived, he checked between the 2 brass studs and he said if the
money's taken from the front of the car, the crime was in County Fermanagh and if it
was taken from the rear of the car then it was in the Republic. And we ended up
investigating the crime because the money was taken from the rear of the car.
[06:50:34:17]
Q: So the RUC would have been there as well?
�PETER: OH the RUC sergeant was there as well, we were both called to the scene.
Q: And you discussed this?
PETER: We discussed the situation and none of us were agreeing which side of the
border it was on so the engineer decided it for us. [06:50:54:15]
Q and was the crime solved?
PETER: The crime wasn't solved, the car, the car was got abandoned up a side road that
was cratered adjacent to the garrison Belleek road, so obviously they made their escape
that way and it was a stolen car that was found. [06:51:11:12]
Q: Was that commonplace?
PETER: That was the story so…it was another unsolved crime
Q: And the border line?
PETER: [06:51:31:22] The border line, I suppose…. the Fermanagh county council tarring
the road just tarred slightly into the Republic and I'd say the people that carried out the
raid would have assumed that the crime took place in County Fermanagh
(laugh).[06:51:45:16]
Q: So tell me about the second story?
PETER: [06:51:56:11] It’s, oh it could have been, around the same time a prominent
politician in Northern Ireland said that the Gardaí weren't welcome in Northern Ireland,
there was a direction from Garda Headquarters that Gardaí shouldn't enter Northern
Ireland off duty, so I was in an awkward situation because if I wanted to go home, I
couldn't get home without going through Northern Ireland, some of my relations lived in
County Fermanagh, so I ignored the direction. I went off one day, to Clones, and the
family was with me, and the children were in the back of the car, and as we come into
Enniskillen, an RUC constable stopped me and she asked me where I was coming from
[06:52:51:08] where I was going and I said Ballyshannon to Clones, and as I was taking
out me driving license, the youngest girl in the back of the car, spoke up and said 'my
daddy's a Guard too!' so the RUC lady said go ahead, so I didn't have to open the boot!
[06:53:12:17]
Q: You were telling me about a 3rd incident?
PETER: [06:53:24:06] Another incident wherethe roads were cratered at the time and
you would have to go the main road through a checkpoint to go from North to South -
�there was a body set up to try and get the roads open again and a number of people got
involved in it. And one particular man in a family, got involved in the campaign to open
the roads, and they used to hold meetings and they would close in the roads and a large
number of demonstrators would arrive. But once they would leave, the road would be
filled in again, and there was a case. This was. . this person who was involved in the road
open committee had brothers and they all used the one car [06:54:22:02] and if they
were crossing the border, if he was driving the car, he would be stopped at the British
Army checkpoint, he'd be held and delayed, so this day there was a football match south
of the border and the other 2 brothers decided they would go and they would leave
Tony at home. [06:54:40:14] And he insisted on going and they said no you're not
coming because we'll be late for the match - we'll be held. So he insisted, he got into the
rear of the car and they drove to the checkpoint, and he was asked for his driving
license, his name, obviously the number of the car was put on computer and it was
shown up as a car used by the person involved in the opening the roads committee
[06:55:09:02] and he took his name and he asked for the name of the other passengers,
and he gave the other brothers name, and he said who else have you? And he said Tony.
‘Oh he said, you have left Anthony at home today? The Englishman didn't distinguish
between, that Tony and Anthony was one and the same person so he waved them on.
[06:55:32:05]
Q: I'm curious about the tension around then, did that make the lob stressful?
PETER: [06:55:56:00] It did to a certain extent but you got used to it after a while like
there was problems in that people were being inconvenienced - there was a checkpoint
on Ballyshannon bridge, and people were going over and back to school and they were
being stopped and the locals would be known and be waved on but the problem would
be that there would be a lot of cars passing through and there was a big build up so it
was very distressful. You were holding people up and you were delaying them …. and
then at that stage too, during the summer, you had a lot of people traveling into
Bundoran and Rossnowlagh for the summer, and they were, the checkpoint out near
Belleek was causing problems. [06:56:36:22] And you would always try and send extra
Guards out on a Sunday around 1pm, 12 noon to 1pm to try and alleviate the problem,
because you had children coming in cars and the sun beating down on them, a hot day,
and here they were being inconvenienced and you still had to check cars because apart
from anything else [06:57:05:23] there was always the threat of a UVF attack, and in fact
there was a UVF attack in 1969 on the power station in Ballyshannon. People arrived
and placed a bomb in the power station and it exploded prematurely and didn't do a lot
of harm but there was a man killed unfortunately - a man from County Down and he
possibly got involved with the UVF, someone asked him to join, he joined up and he
come here and he, he was badly burned in the incident and died a few days later in the
Shiel Hospital. [06:57:51:09] So you had to weigh up that possibility of wrong doing so
you had to check cars, and, coming through and nevertheless you were conscious of the
fact that you were holding up the 99% of the genuine people who were coming through.
[06:58:11:10]
�Q: Did you personally experience much in the way of murders or killings etc?
PETER: [06:58:19:03] There were some shootings in Belleek, there was one case where
an Army officer was shot in Belleek, he came down from the police station, they were
based in the police station, and he stopped across the road at Slater’s corner and
someone was on high ground and fired a shot and killed him, and, we didn't have any
murders on our side but it was related to the border area. [06:58:55:23]
Q: So your wife and family must have been concerned for you?
PETER: [06:59:01:13] Well not so much because…..at the time….there was no Gardai
injured or attacked, it was just the normal run of the mill and you didn't feel under big
pressure or you never went out with the fear of anything happening. [06:59:24:12]
Q: Was there fear in the community at all?
PETER: [06:59:28:21] There was fear for a while after the occasion of the UVF bombing
out at the power station on the Belleek road, people were concerned, and then there
was a bit of concern I suppose during the summer months when the tourists come in
but after a while people get used to these things and they just put it behind them.
[06:59:55:20]
Q: Have things changed much now?
PETER: [07:00:06:06] Oh things are a lot more relaxed and …. at that stage everyone was
under a bit of pressure, if they were traveling they were allowing extra time, and then
you had the situation where roads were blocked and people going to visit their
neighbours had to make a detour of maybe 10 or 15 miles but all the roads have been
opened up and there,things have changed for the better.[07:00:31:10]
Q: Did the Gardaí have any responsibility for lads on the run coming over the border?
Did they have to be on the lookout for them?
PETER:[07:00:45:17] You would always be on the lookout for people in case they would
be, y'know people could be carrying guns or weapons and if anyone was found in
possession of guns or explosives, they would be arrested but very, very seldom that
would happen.[07:01:09:15]
Q: A politician said Gardaí weren’t welcome in Northern Ireland possibly because there
was a feeling that the Gardaí were possibly turning a blind eye to troubles on their side
of the border - how do you feel?
�PETER: [07:01:33:06] Well he possibly had something like that in mind but as far as I was
concerned the Gardaí were very active in pursuing wrong doers and that wasn't the
situation, so he might have perceived it to be. 07:01:48:23]
Q: Thanks, great, thank you very much indeed
END IV [07:01:58:14]
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Peter Conlon
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Peter Conlon
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Peter Conlon (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
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Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
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6 October 2013
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PDF version of transcript
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English
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deposited
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3457
Memory Project
Smashing Times
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https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/6e1115bdf641ea8213605b3ef4992252.pdf
940e1d6e91194749390ef8013ad5c1ba
PDF Text
Text
6 October 2013
Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: Ards Arts Centre, Newtownards, County Down.
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: D70010
TC Start: 03:03:58:14
Q: OK so maybe Billy you could tell us where you were born and grew up?
BILLY: 03:04:24:08] Well I was born in Newtownards, County Down, late 1957, went to
primary school there, did all my schooling in Newtownards, second eldest of 6, 2 sisters
and 3 brothers. My mum and dad are still alive…. I see them…. maybe 2 or 3 times a
month [03:04:54:00].
Q: What was family life like growing up?
BILLY: [03:04:58:20] Tough. I mean there wasn't a great deal of money y'know and even
though, even though my dad had served his country in the Army, it was still difficult to
get a Housing Executive property, a council property which, you'd think at the time….
Protestants would have been top of the lists for getting properties, but it wasn't always
the case. [03:05:23:01] y'know, whether or not you’d have served your country, that
didn't seem to matter at all. [03:05:29:09]
Q: Maybe you could talk a bit about your experience of the conflict - when you first
became aware of it?
�BILLY: 03:05:41:17] I think I really first became aware, it became real, was the night I
watched all the B Specials handing in their weapons, it was on TV, the B Specials were
handing in their weapons to the local Police station. Which, that, that meant that no
longer did the B Specials have weapons, right? And later on they formed the UDR which
in effect a lot of old B Specials joined and …. to keep this Protestant thing going, being
armed [03:06:29:20] legally armed, and that didn't include me. I mean I was only a child
but my father, my father would have nothing to with them either, he just . . . he just
didn't want to know….. he was offered to join …. and he used a few choice words, which
I shan’t re-iterate here, but he was not having any of it [03:06:59:05], right ……
BILLY: [03:07:52:09] Well I first became aware that something was happening when I
saw the B Specials handing in all their weapons at the local police station, cos, I mean
everyone in the protestant community knew that the B Specials were exclusively
protestant. And supposedly the saviours of the protestant community which I never,
ever agreed with but, I mean my father was approached to join the paramilitaries and
he told them in no uncertain terms to disappear, he wasn't interested….. I used to be a
member of St John's Ambulance brigade and one evening when I was going
[03:08:46:20] to St John's, a car stopped, and I was put against the wall by 3 or 4 quite
burly persons and I was told that I had to join, and again I told them in no uncertain
terms - not a chance - that I was looking…. working towards coming a nurse therefore
being involved in such activity would stop me becoming a nurse…. I got a couple of
slaps. But then I had a word with a few people and any pressure on me stopped
completely [03:09:29:10] I was, leave him alone he's doing what he wants to do - he's
not against us y'know so….. it was accepted as such…… I mean growing up I had some
really good Catholic friends …. really close Catholic friends, myself and my friend Painty
we, I mean y'know, there was me and Painty and a group of Catholics so Painty and I
didn't …. have any problem with people of different religions especially not Catholics
[03:10:07:14] …. in fact the majority of my girlfriends throughout my life have been
Catholic for some reason (laugh) I don't know why but that’s how it’s worked out.
[03:10:22:24]
Q: What was it like being a teenager during the conflict?
BILLY: [03:10:27:19] Well... it didn't really affect me a great deal because I would go to
Portrush to the motorcycle races, I would go into Belfast every Saturday to a blues club
and listen to blues and the thing is that the blues club was mainly frequented by
Catholics …. and I never had any hassle, we just went there to have, to listen to good
music …. And, and have a few beers…. And never had any problem. [03:10:59:23]
Q: And was your family ever directly impacted …….by the conflict?
BILLY: 03:11:09:14] Well the only impact, well, my brother was blown up …. in 1979 but
he survived, and he has no hatred, he has no animosity. So I feel, well what, why should
�I have any animosity? I mean he networks with ex combatants now and he knows a lot
of ex combatants, people, that no doubt, 20 years ago he'd have been trying to
kill…..and were trying to kill him…. *03:11:53:10+ but as I say, if he can live with it ….I
don't see why more people can’t. [03:12:01:23]
Q: Could you maybe tell me the details about what happened?
BILLY: 03:12:06:15] ...That day, his unit was on its, their way to South Armagh…. and
they were coming past….Narrow Water at Warrenpoint when an explosion happened in
a hay cart…… then after the quick response team had come, and were, they were being
fired upon from across the border from the Republic over to…. onto Narrow Water
where they were ….. and when the QRF came, the Quick Reaction Force came, another
explosion went off….and ….. *03:12:56:20+ killed 2 members of another regiment who
were there at the same time so in all, all told that day there were 18 soldiers killed. The
biggest day's loss I think that the British Army had during the conflict. [03"13:16:09]
Q: And your brother survived?
BILLY: [03:13:22:06] Yes…yes.. I mean he lost close friends obviously, I mean …….
people he had joined the Army with at 16 so y'know, at that age friendships grow pretty
close, especially under the, the circumstances of all…. going for the same thing within
the military, so they forge close friendships….. *03:13:48:10+…… I myself was on duty……
in a different regiment that day so I didn't actually hear about him being blown up until
about 10 o’clock that night …. and needless to say I was, I was a bit upset, and I went to
see my company Sergeant Major, and I, I was visibly upset, I mean he told me to sit
down and cry if I had to cry - which I did……. and he sent me to the armoury to pick up a
weapon…… and got me taken to Royal Victoria Military Hospital, or Musgrave Park
Military Hospital …. and the corporal wasn't going to let me into intensive care
[03:14:40:09] and I threw a bit of a hissy fit, and let him know that I wasn't any stranger
to working in sterile….. active…..y'know sterile areas, so he gowned me up and I went
in to see him…… and, and the very first words he said to me was 'Billy, they got us really
well' *03:15:08:08+ ….and that's….. that will forever be with me …… that he, even at that
early stage, he didn't have hatred…. although he was in shock, he was more impressed
with the way they had got them….. yeah so…… Margaret Thatcher couldn't get into to
see the person I saw! [03:15:35:16]
Q: And did she want to?
BILLY: 03:15:37:00] Oh yes she tried to, but they wouldn't let her in, they just wouldn't
let her in ……. so this little man here has done something Margaret Thatcher couldn't
do! [03:15:48:00]
Q: And was there anybody else you knew growing up, involved in the conflict?
�BILLY: 03:15:53:05+ ……… I knew a guy from Newtownards who was a policeman who
was killed at Downpatrick ….. again terrorist activity, I knew a guy from Holywood who
used to sleep in a car in Newtownards, he was homeless, and he joined the Royal Army
Air Corps and he was killed as a result of terrorist activity ….. as far as it goes there are
other people I know of but I don't really want to talk about them….*03:16:36:05+ cos I
don't think it’s appropriate .
Q: And then, what happened after that when you hit your 20's?
BILLY: 03:16:46:14+ Well…… I really couldn't wait to get out of Northern Ireland because
although I came from a Protestant, Unionist background, something inside me told me
that that’s not all I was….. so when, when I came to England ….. it gave me license to
become more Irish, if you know what I mean…… I mean I, I could go to pubs and sing
what I considered to be Irish folk tunes, which were frowned upon ….by protestants in
the North of Ireland which I couldn't …… I couldn't understand, I thought it was….
y'know ….. they, they frowned on you singing Dubliners songs purely because they were
Dubliners songs [03:17:45:05+ not necessarily rebel songs…. but they were still frowned
upon …. so my soiree in England (laugh) I mean I did psychiatric nursing when I was
there and I was glad to do that because again I met a vast array of people…… some of
them I liked and some I didn't (laugh) but there was always….*03:18:09:08+ you'd always
find one person who'd be picking away because I was Irish - be picking away trying to
get me to let my barriers down, Oh Gerry Adams this, Gerry Adams that, and I
personally didn't like the man and because even though I was a socialist and I didn't like
him…. this English guy that I knew thought this was terrible that I should support Gerry
Adams because I was a socialist and I tried to explain to the guy that there’s a lot more
than just being a socialist, than liking Gerry Adams - in his case it might have been so but
in my case, with my background, I couldn't, I didn't, I still don't like him [03:18:52:04] ….
I think he has a lot of things to answer for… as, no doubt, there are protestant politicians
in power now that still have things to answer for… but as I say, with the situation in
Northern Ireland now it seems anybody's game…. That anybody's game to be a
politician, regardless of what they have committed in the past…… which I think is
wrong……… right…… *03:19:24:11+*microphone adjustment+
Q: I was just thinking, what was it like to be Irish in England during that period?
BILLY: [03:19:51:00] I mean…… obviously ….. I mean in the 70's and in the early 80's……
there were a lot of atrocities, in England, that were caused by Irishmen ….. I felt a little
bit of angst from other people, but much less angst than I would have felt had I been in
Northern Ireland….. y'know [03:20:25:04] and, and the very fact that I had an Army
number, I'd been in the Army - helped a great deal – cos if I got into any….. if the police
started on me or whatever, I just give them my Army number and tell them to ring and
find out who I was - and it happened on a few occasions, and they came back and said
sorry for bothering you, sorry for bothering you, but….*03:20:47:08+ I suppose once
you're…… once you are classed as an Irishman - I mean it’s what you are….. especially
�in… in the dark days when there was so much violence in England…. I mean I had my
door knocked at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning on a few occasions because something
had happened in London or you know, but not often, not often. [03:21:18:05]
Q: And then when you moved back to Ards, did you come back with a different
perspective?
BILLY: [03:21:27:15] Completely …. when I came back to live in Northern Ireland, I felt
like a fish out of water…… but by that time …even….. even at that time there were a
couple of pubs I could go to and sing the songs that I wanted to sing….. things had
less….lessened a bit *03:21:56:06+ but….. then again there were more explosions in
Newtownards, and things…… I mean things are still the same ….I mean although there's
not as much activity as there was ….. the estates are still governed….. by…..illegal
organizations, by, by the UVF, by the UDA…. *03:22:23:21+ …. I don't have any
experience of the Catholic estates but… I know from what I hear that they’re still
governed by the IRA …..and by illegal organizations, it’s, because the working class
people - they really don't have a say……that if you're…. if you're unfortunate enough to
live in an estate, you're bound by what that estate says [03:22:52:03] I mean I, I
couldn't …. there are lots of activities I can't take part in, in my estate because it is ….it's
a UVF estate and it will always be a UVF estate - I mean as far as I can see in the future I don't see things changing that much. [03:23:10:19]
Q: And how do they control the estate?
BILLY: [03:23:15:15] Well they police the estate themselves, you don't ring the police,
you don't ring the police, you... go and speak to someone higher up the totem pole and
then it supposedly gets sorted. [03:23:35:16]
Q: And you don't see that changing?
BILLY: [03:23:40:20] Not that I can see, no, no, it, it’s been too long, I mean once the
estates go up…..once the estates go up then a body takes over the security of the
estate…..and it doesn't matter what estate you go to, you'll see murals and they will
largely say who is in charge in that estate. [03:24:10:03]
Q: Anything else? What you didn't, or wasn't clear was that you were in the Army… it
was referred to … it’s going to take generations to exorcise all of the hatred - that’s
fundamentally what it is…. and I just wonder what you think?
BILLY: [03:24:51:16] You see I don't know… I don't have any hatred, I don't have any
hatred….. because personally I wasn't injured, right….not … it’s just my brother and if my
brother can forgive……. I'm not in any position to disagree with him…. or to do
differently….. because it wasn't my life on the line - it was his - and he survived.
[03:25:23:14]
�Q: Have you witnessed or heard of other hatreds?
BILLY: [03:25:28:06] I know people, and I've had a drink with people who ……even to
this day, just do not like Catholics - they're an anathema completely, but they know
where I stand – and if they want to spend time in my company that’s just it, they don't
start talking about…… things that I disagree with……. Or, or things that are contentious there’s no point cos it only brings up memories, brings up things that are best left to
sleep *03:26:11:18+ ….and the, the thing, the thing about Northern Ireland is people's
memories are too long y'know…. I mean there were dark days, there were dark days for
both communities …and both…. there were dark days caused by both communities and
until….. until they both come to grips with the point that they both have points to
answer, they both have….. they have points to answer ….. it’s like the matter…. don't
pee in my back door - do it in someone else's - NIMBY's, not mine, but they all have their
own demons to answer *03:26:59:13+ …… and a lot of them …. y'know a lot of them are
being answered but no doubt …… until we can….. until we can get to the point where
grandfathers aren't going and attacking the police …..on lines…. at a demonstration,
because if the …if the children and the grandchildren see the grandfather going and
doing things like that it just gives a red light…. a green light just continue behaving like
that *03:27:30:19+ ….. it’s got to start with those that were involved, teaching the ones
that are now coming up behind that it’s not a good thing to be involved - that the only
way we are ever going to have any semblance of peace and normality living together, is
if we accept each other’s differences, and celebrate each other's differences if needs be.
[03:27:53:18]
Q: And what do you think about the 12th?
BILLY: *03:27:57:17+ It’s a nice wee festival, but that’s it, I, I no longer have any faith in
Orangism per se, it’s OK y'know….. it’s an old institution…. but…. again I think that it… it
may have outlived its usefulness……I think. *03:28:25:17+
Q: And Billy are your moderate views reflective of a minority or majority?
BILLY: [03:28:51:12] I think that the people, I think …intelligent people…….people who
realize the situation, being moderate is on the increase, but at the very start there was
only a minority that started the Trouble - on both sides - and as long as there is that
unrest among minorities, who knows what tomorrow can bring? y'know, it doesn't
take……. it doesn't take a whole lot of people to start a revolution…. y'know ……
revolution for good or bad, it, it’s unimportant …..I mean Hitler was only one man and I
rest my case on that one. [03:29:46:13]
END IV [03:29:52:19]
�Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: 30 November 2014, Leinster Cricket Club
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
TC: 00:28:15:24
Q: Okay I’m good to record, turn off my phone, you okay?
BILLY: Yeah.
Q: When you went up to Sligo, what did Freda tell you were in for?
BILLY: Well she said I’d be playing a few games, you know theatre games and being silly,
and just allowing myself to be silly, to get to the, to make other people comfortable so
they would be in a position where they would be willing to tell their stories.
Q: Are you happy to play games in public?
BILLY: Provided it’s closed public, I, I wouldn’t be happy in the street doing games like
that but within the confines of the room, yes.
Q: So you didn’t find it awkward or sort of nerve wracking to go in?
BILLY: No, I had already played some games, theatre games before that anyway so I
was au fait with what was going to happen.
Q: Well even before you did those, I mean did you . . ?
BILLY: Well yes, I had done some things with Idan before, before we went to Sligo.
Q: I’m trying to get to the sense of someone coming into it for the first time, especially a
man. . would probably not, it wouldn’t necessarily be as easy, certainly from what I’ve
seen, women seem to find it easier.
BILLY: Well I think that may be true but, I, I think that you have to being willing to let
yourself, I mean there’s no point coming in to play these games if you’re going to have
something to say ‘oh no I’m too embarrassed, no I’m too embarrassed’, you have to put
yourself out on a limb in order to get the best from you, and allow yourself to be
�directed and have total trust, even running about with your eyes closed, so you have to
trust who is running the game.
Q: And how do you feel the games made you feel when you were doing it?
BILLY: I enjoyed the games in Sligo but what I enjoyed more than that was the reaction
of the older ladies, it was, I was quite impressed with the way they quickly settled down
and then were able and willing to tell their stories, which was really what we were after.
Q: And how did you feel about telling stories in front of strangers essentially?
BILLY: Well I mean it’s a story that has to be told, and if people like myself, and people
who remember it don’t tell it then it’ll never be told, so it’s important that we’re willing
to give of ourselves.
Q: Have you seen any reason to believe that not telling it is a problem?
BILLY: Me, reasons as a problem, no I don’t get any, I don’t have any problem with it, I
think perhaps some of the people where I live might have a problem but I know there
are a few people that are well aware of what I do in these theatre workshops because I
tell them why we’re doing it and what we’re doing and the majority of people just are
quite happy enough, y’know where I come from which is predominantly Protestant I
have had no problem with people being aggressive or anti. .
Q: What do you feel is being achieved through the workshops for yourself?
BILLY: For myself? Well I think it gives me a greater sense of perspective because I know
my story, which is probably an army related family story, but to hear the complete
opposite, the complete opposite stories to what I would be telling, from supposedly the
other side, I find that extremely interesting to see the hurt and damage and the scars
that other people have, because of some people on my supposed side of the argument
have behaved.
Q: Do you think it’s doing any good?
BILLY: Slowly. But I think it, it won’t come to fruition until we have the generation
following, that, they will get a understanding of what it was like, not just for their side
but for the other side, and have a little piece of empathy for how the other, the other
people felt, regardless of how you feel about their reasons, just on a humanitarian side
of ‘this is how this man felt, how this woman felt’, I think until they understand that, the
process will not move forward.
Q: Do you have any sort of sense of where Northern Ireland is going right now?
�BILLY: Ah. That’s a big question.
Q: I’m sorry, I, just there is a sense that Northern Ireland is not an entity in this, it’s
something that . . . people come in and talk a little bit about, I’m just curious that you’ve
had a large involvement in it.
BILLY: Yes.
Q: How do you feel, is it still today dangerous, do you feel?
BILLY: Yes. Of course, there are certain parts of the North I wouldn’t go to purely
because my face wouldn’t fit, or my accent, they would catch onto my accent and I
would be persona non grata. And that’s regardless, before they know what I am; the
way I speak would immediately, he’s Anglified, you know, so it wouldn’t go down well in
some quarters.
Q: So is there still a sense of fear in the North?
BILLY: Yes, very much so. I think that the organizations that were there during the
Troubles are still there, and they still have influence. All you’ve got to do is look at the
politicians, they, y’know they don’t leave the past behind them, they say that they’re
trying to improve things, but, I’m at a loss for the politicians in the North, I don’t think
that there’s a reasonable one among them.
Q: But if you’re saying the past. . leaving behind, surely this raising of stories is just
bringing up the past?
BILLY: Yes but you have to bring it up, you have to look at the old injury in order to heal
the old injury and there are injuries on both sides of, of the divide that, until they’re
looked at, they can never be healed.
Q: Thank you very much.
BILLY: You’re very welcome.
Q: Lovely, well spoken.
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
William Caughey
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with William Caughey
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by William Caughey (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
31 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3456
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Story Title
The title, if any, of the story or account.
<em>Untitled Story</em>, by Andrew Redican
Story Available
Y/N
Yes
Story Format
Main format of the story (video; audio; etc.).
Video
Story Source
Source of where the story can be found.
The story has been <strong>deposited</strong> with Accounts of the Conflict.<br /><strong>Film interview</strong> available at website:<br /> https://vimeo.com/120173436<br /><strong>Interview transcript</strong> also available:<br /> http://www.smashingtimes.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/Interview-with-Andrew-Redican-Transcript-The-Memory-Project-Smashing-Times-Theatre-Company.pdf
Interviewee Surname
Redican
Interviewee Forename(s)
Andrew
Ind Permission Form
Yes/No - Individual permission form signed and returned to Accounts.
Yes (signed: 30 November 2015)
Ind Form Uploaded
Scanned copy of paper form for preservation alongside the stories.
Yes
Ind Delay Access Y/N
Y/N for individual story-teller delayed access request (check signed permission form)
No (open access)
Interviewee Gender
Male
Religion
Religion / denomination that the interviewee was brought up in.
Catholic
Marital Status
Marital status of the interviewee.
Married
Birth Country
Country of birth if mentioned (or make assessment based on interview).
Republic of Ireland
Current Occupation
Current occupation status of interviewee.
Retired
Occupation during conflict
Occupation status at the time of the conflict / story.
Secondary School Teacher
Previous Address
Previous address (during conflict / story).
Drumkeeran [County Leitrim, Republic of Ireland]
Status
Details of status of interviewee during conflict (civilian; security force; combatant; paramilitary; political party; loyal order; etc.).
Civilian
Story Abstract
Text from any publicly available abstract which describes the story.
Andrew Redican gives an account of life living close to the border during the period of the Troubles.
Dates Mentioned
Specific dates, or ranges.
1969 [1960s];
Events Mentioned
Major events mentioned.
Hunger Strike (1981)
Organisations Mentioned
Main organisations mentioned.
British Army (BA);
Sinn Féin (SF)
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Untitled Story</em>, by Andrew Redican (<em>story details</em>)
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Description
An account of the resource
The video interview with Andrew Redican was carried out by Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd. as part of The Memory Project. It is one of 12 video interviews. The film interview was recorded at Abbey Arts Centre, Ballyshannon, Republic of Ireland on 29 September 2013.
At the time of the interview Andrew Redican was a retired secondary school teacher living in Drumkeerin, County Leitrim, Republic of Ireland.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Video
Language
A language of the resource
English
Memory Project
Smashing Times