1
10
1257
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/ee7aa9109f11a1af65092c13ae19cccd.pdf
9ae0b8b8198a9bb41d7a87226f9c74e1
PDF Text
Text
30 September 2013
Interview with:
Eileen Weir, Shankill Women’s Centre, Belfast
Venue: Shankill Road Women’s Centre, Shankill Road, Belfast. (Part 1)
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no:
D60001
Q: Eileen we're just going to go over some of the things we talked about before when
I came up here, maybe if we start off with where you were born?
EILEEN: [01:00:31:17] I was born in Belfast; I was born on the Shankill road in the house
which was the family home. So I was the youngest of 3, and I was born in the front room! So I
was a home birth with the midwife all those years ago [01:00:52:17] and I was born and
reared on the Shankill road.
Q: And you lived all your life here?
EILEEN: [01:00:58:24] I moved when the Troubles sort of weighed in, in the late 70's, my
mom took me out of the road and we went to Carrickfergus to live, but I moved back, I
moved back to my roots. I'm back living now about 20 years, back, not so much on the
Shankill but within that Greater North Belfast area. [01:01:22:17]
Q: You talked to me before about your experience of the conflict, and the kind of things that
happened in the Shankill road, maybe can you tell me a little bit about that?
EILEEN: [01:01:34:11] Well I was probably, the age of 15 when the conflict really started, I
was still at school. I can remember I was still at school, and it was very new, very scary but
�very new, it was exciting, it was something new. Ah..we…y’know at the time of the no-go
areas and different things like that and a lot of the trouble what’s about which you know
within my community - my community would be a protestant background - and everybody
sort of like came out and looked after each other because there was a number of power
strikes and there was no lights and no electric and so everybody got their camping stoves out
and that’s how the dinner was made and …[01:02:19:22] all the women met in the houses
and peeled the potatoes for the pots of stew, and there was a sense of community about it,
although it was very serious of what was going on, but you weren't really aware of what was
going on , y'know there was a number of things that you got involved in, that maybe you
shouldn't have got involved in y'know and…ah…it was…. it wasn't about…I think that the
propaganda at the time everybody was out fighting to protect their home because the
propaganda about in them days was they're coming to burn you out, they're coming to get
you [01:02:56:17] so everybody reacted on the information that was coming through. It was
a very exciting time, looking back it was very exciting but with a lot of consequences that you
wouldn't have thought 30 odd years on, 40 years on that that was the case. [01:03:16:22]
Q: And did you get involved, were you actively involved?
EILEEN: [01:03:19:10] Well actively involved, yes, in the sense that, my mom didn't know I
was actively involved. She would have bit the head off me like, but the time of the no-go
areas, I joined the UDA [01:03:35:14] and at that time the UDA wasn't an illegal organization.
The UVF was an illegal organization but UDA wasn’t so I joined up in the UDA and I was 16 at
the time, when I joined the UDA and we were to look after the elderly in a certain area
where it was a no-go area where bread men couldn't get in, the milkmen couldn't get in, and
the elderly generation that lived in that area, couldn't get out to the shops to get their
messages so we actually were there to look after the older people, [01:04:10:12] to make
sure they got their butter. It would all come to the top of the street and you had to queue up
and get your butter and your bread and your milk, and make sure that the pensioners in the
area actually got what they needed to help them, and it was a core sense of community. And
then one of the other roles that the women, that was in the UDA at that time, was to make
sure, at the time of the no-go areas, it was all the men who protected the areas - it wasn't
women - we were there to make sure that the men - that the wee girls didn't chat up the
men that was protecting the areas - so we were sorta way the babysitters of, make sure
there was no hanky panky going on [01:04:56:09] at the no-go areas, at the barricades, so
that was another wee role. There was never an inactive role as in guns running or anything
like that, it was all like more of the welfare side of it and a wee bit of first aid, other than that
y'know that’s what the women were used for in my community. [01:05:20:18]
Q: As part of that you were talking about the women’s… what happened then after that,
what happened after you left the UDA?
EILEEN: [01:05:31:00] Well the thing, I mean it was a natural progress of moving out of it
because when the no-go areas came down and the streets were all opened again, what we
were doing within the UDA was no longer needed, because people could get out and do their
�thing. Ah so really…I can't really remember it coming til an end. I can just remember
changing, having a mind set change and I was very actively involved in the Trade Union which
I think opened my eyes to a lot of other things. [01:06:04:05] And I remember one day, for
reasons, well, they, they used to block the road, the Shankill Road at 12 O'clock every
Saturday, and when they blocked the road at 12 O’clock every Saturday, nobody moved
anywhere for an hour, the road was blocked and this was a protest that happened every
Saturday. Now I'm going a way back into the 70's, and I remember I worked, and I was sitting
outside a vegetable shop on the Shankill and this guy came over to me and asked for my car,
they needed my car to block the road [01:06:42:17] and I said I wasn't going to give my car
up to block no road, and they said if you don't block it up we're going to take it off you. I says
you'll not be taking the car off me, in the meantime my mom's in the shop saying 'give them
your car, give them your car' and I'm going no, because the way I looked at it was, I had
worked very, very hard to have this wee car, now it was an auld scrap heap, but it was mine!
And I wasn't going to allow anybody to take it, so they came and threatened me about taking
the car off of me and I says 'where are you going to put my car'? They said we're going to put
your car straight across the road for an hour, so I drove the car across the road and I sat in it
for an hour and I didn't let anybody take the car. [01:07:25:21] So that was a big turning
point for me, because here was a guy who never worked a day in his life, going to take my car
that I had worked and earned very hard for, so I seen a change in my attitudes in that
where's the cause in blocking your own road for an hour? Who were you hitting? Who were
you penalizing? Who was suffering? And it was all people in my community that was
suffering. [01:07:50:12] And to the degree that I was being threatened to get my car off me
so that was a big, big turning point in my life. And then I became a lot more active within the
Trade Union and at that time y'know, I would have said I wouldn’t have had a lot of socialist
views but that all came from the Trade Union and the stuff that I was learning in the Trade
Union and our committee was a women's committee within the Trade Union, and we looked
at things that wasn't right for women…and it wasn't an orange and green thing and it wasn't
a Protestant or Catholic thing, it was about the rights of women, low paid, strip searches, and
most of those things that I would have been campaigning for, it would have been perceived
to be a very Republican/Nationalist thing so I couldn't really come back into my own
community and say I was doing these things, but I WAS doing these things. [01:08:47:14] And
sort of way, put me down the road of equality and fairness and I think that has stuck with me
right to the day, that y'know, that I've transferred a lot of the skills that I had within the
Trade Union movement into my peace making role in the community, and into my work that
I do at the minute. [01:09:08:18]
Q: And I remember before you were telling me about, when you were working for the Trade
Union, and you had to go round and tell the guys to take down flags and other offensive..?
EILEEN: [01:09:20:19] No that wasn't actually in the Trade Union, I had moved, and that’s not
that long ago, oh aye yes, I know what one you're talking about. I worked in a well known
industry and the time of the Flags and Emblems Act came out, there used to be a tradition
within the factory, that coming up to the 12th, that they had their flags on their machines,
and they had a wee mini 12th around the factory, so when the Flags and Emblems Act came
�in [01:09:50:23] I actually was in Ballymena working at the time so it was a very
staunch…real, well it would have been a probably DUP, you know, a real staunch loyalist
area. And when the flags and emblems act came in, the guy who was actually senior shop
steward was from a Catholic tradition and he didn't feel that he could go round and ask the
people to take down their flags, their Union Jacks and their Ulster flags so he approached me
and he says 'I'm off on the sick, I'm going out on the sick, taking holidays’ and I says right, so
he actually had left me with it which I understood. [01:10:32:01] I did understand, so when I
was going round saying to the men, it was illegal to do it because a law had been past and
the Trade Union signed up to the legislation that the Flags and Emblems Act had to be
adhered to. So when I was going round the shop floor asking the guys to take down the flags,
they questioned my loyalism which I'm not a loyalist, but they questioned my faith and I just
sort of said to them, see when you were lying in your bed in August in 1969, while you were
lying in your bed sleeping I wasn't so my credibility coming from the area that I came from . .
. I didn’t need to say any more than that so the sort of way…. backfired…the flags came
down. But just to make it an equality thing, I walked into the fitters shop, now in most
factories where it’s a male environment they will have calendars up of nude women and
different things that would offend women, but no women actually went into those rooms
unless their machine was broke, so when I got all the flags down [01:11:50:22] and people
not flying anything offensive, I went into all the fitters shops and electrical shops and
requested all the posters to come down too because if the flags offended some people, the
posters offended people too, so to change it into rather than being just one issue because
the Flags and Emblems act is anything that offends - it wasn't just a flag thing. So all the
nude women came down off the fitters shops too which they weren't too happy but they
seen the point of it and they seen the principle, you can't apply one principle under an
emblems act and not apply it in another principle so it was nude free and flag free (laugh). I
don't know what’s it like now but at that time it was flag free and nude free [01:12:40:09).
And in the same area, and because all the flags were took down, the Managing Director Mr
Finlay, who was a lovely gentleman, sent for me to come to his office and he took me up the
stairs and where his office was you could look right out on to the security gates of people
coming in and he said have a look at this Eileen, and I looked out the window and they had
organized red white and blue, red white and blue, red white and blue. Everybody wore a
different colour jumper because they weren't allowed, because they weren’t allowed to put
their flags up. They were allowed to wear jumpers, the were allowed to wear coats, so the
whole line the whole way in had it so that it was red, white and blue, red white and blue and
when they got into the factory they hung their cardigans over the chairs, red white and blue,
red white and blue (laugh) so y’know, I know I'm laughing about it now, y’know . . .but that’s,
that’s how much it really affected people. They felt that they were lossing their identity, and
so that was another. . getting the red white and blue cardigans on the back of, the back of
the chairs to try and sort of like calm things down y’know. [01:13:54:16]
Q: When I was talking to you the last time, you talked about the...because you work for the
Shankill Women’s Centre and the Falls Women’s Centre, what was the relationship between
the 2 centres during the conflict?
�EILEEN: [01:14:06:23] Well the relationship y’know, I think the women’s centre’s going 27
now, 28 years, and it’s the same with Falls they would have been the two…not the main ones
but they were one of the earlier ones . . . and there was a bit of thing about funding at one
time away back then and politicians were sort of way using the women's centres to y'know, if
you do this then they're not getting the money and if they get the money then you'll not get
the money and they were trying to play the both - the Falls and the Shankill off with each
other. And it wasn't just the women's centres, it was money in that community and the 2
women’s centres sort of way said well if both of us are not getting it then we don't want it so
keep it. [01:14:52:05] And to this day that relationship still is strong with the Shankill and the
Falls because at the time of the conflict here a lot of the men were all in prison y'know, there
was internment and a lot of the loyalist prisoners, republican prisoners and it was women
that ran the communities. It was women who had to look for the loaf of bread, the pint of
milk, y’know and, and the struggle was an awful lot more because women were the
backbone of the communities at that time because a lot of the men were in prison.
[01:15:29:22] So the women had to sort of way get things done and, and there was a bond
because there was families involved, there was kids involved, there was education involved
and the women was the head and the breadwinner of the family for many, many years.
[01:15:49:14]
Q: What was it like when the men came out of prison?
EILEEN: [01:15:51:14] Well I mean I don't have a personal experience of it but I know that
listening to a lot of men who did come out of prison and y’know talking in groups where ex
combatants would be in, y’know, some of them men went in, into prison and maybe their
wives or their partner was pregnant and when they came out maybe 10 years, 11 years in,
they were dads and the child really didn't know their Dad so they came from being y’know a
guy in a male environment to come out into the community to start being fathers and
y’know there’s a big adjustment, and things… [01:16:32:19] change so quick y'know, a year
makes a big difference. And y’know to resettle back in to community life again wasn't easy
and still isn't easy for a lot of, of the ex combatants. Y’know, a lot of the ex-combatants are
doing a very, very good job within the peace process and y’know the way I look at it, we need
those people around the table as much as we need the likes of me around the table, to iron
out situations that’s actually happening in the community. [01:17:06:16] Within the
Protestant community, they weren't treated as hero's as much when they came out of
prison, where within the Republican communities, their guys were treated as heros and
there was a lot more that I would think that the republican movement done for their excombatants than what was happening within the loyalist communities. [01:17:33:01]
Q: Ad what’s your vision for the future?
EILEEN: [01:17:38:07] I've been saying it for the last 30 odd years, I, I firmly believe, you
know, we don't have peace. OK, we have a document saying that we have a peace process
and that’s all it is and we don't have peace within our communities, there’s an awful lot that
needs to happen but I don't know…. Y’know I mean, there’s things that happen within
�communities when you are on the ground and you're hearing something’s happening and
you going well no-body came and asked me…. [01:18:10:14] Nobody asked me my opinion.
And I've been working in this job for 20 odd years and I'm working on interfaces and I'm
tending good relations meetings and there's a trip to Cardiff and nobody that I know is on it,
who actually works on the ground 24/7 in these area. So y’know, unless the powers that be
start connecting with the people who are actually working and hands on, and not bringing
people along y’know because they're known for their background, I'm not saying that they
don't do good work, I’m not saying that, what I'm saying is, if you bring the two extremes
together, that’s what you're going to get. But if you bring people together along with those
two extremes to look at other ways round things without the…. when you bring two people
with something so passionate to them of course there's going to be clashes and there'll be
agree to disagree. But I think you need to widen that to people who are working on the
ground for peace and you need to involve that voice. [01:19:26:20] At the minute, the work
that I’m doing at the minute is trying to…well not trying, I am going to set up a Greater North
Belfast Women's Forum to have the women’s voice heard when there's decisions being
made in communities. They NEED to be looking at the Women's point of view, I'm not saying
that the woman's' point of view is always a right point of view but it’s a point of view that is
not been took on board and part of my role is to try and get those women's voices heard
within their communities and within the political process. So it’s down to them whether they
want to get more involved in the community or more involved in the whole political situation
that we have. [01:20:16:09]
Q. Very good.
End file
File D60002
IV EILEEN WEIR (Part 2)
Start TC 01:20:23:13
EILEEN: Look and see about the whole flags and things like that and I'm still trying to get
through the document, and there was to be responses in for Friday past and there was no
way that I was going to be able to submit anything. I don't think they make it easy for people
on the ground, people in communities to, to discuss or debate certain issues, they're focusing
an awful lot on…I think they are putting all their eggs in the one basket as such. Now I've
played sport all my life and I would say yes, sport probably done a lot for me because you
mixed with other people, y’know I mean especially team sports, my sport was hockey
[01:21:10:00] and y’know we would have played down south, we would’ve played all over so
y’know, I'm not saying that sport is not a good medium cos sport is. But what I'm saying is
they’re putting all their eggs into sport and really a lot of the conflict and a lot of stuff that
happens here on the interfaces and a lot of our young people - most of the ones that’s on
�those interfaces and most of the ones that’s doing a lot of the anti-social behaviour stuff,
don't play sport - and they're not going to play sport. So, y’know, I think there needs to be a
lot more thought around what you are doing [01:21:48:02] and I know there is a part in it
about doing summer camps which I think is a fantastic idea because here, especially within
the protestant community we have a tradition, you leave school in June and you don’t,
you're not allowed to really to sign on till September so from June to September you get into
a rut, you don't have to get up for work in the morning, you have 3 months that you don't
really have to do anything if you don't want to do anything. [01:22:20"12] And most of our
training centres that take kids in for skill training all close down over the summer; they only
operate term time too. And they are looking about doing summer camps and things like that
which I think is a great idea but I think, y'know, what’s the point of having a lot of the training
organizations and when the kids is off school, when the biggest part of a lot of the conflict
and a lot of the troubles round marches and parades, all happen between June and
September and there's nothing to keep our young off the street, [01:23:01:04] you know, to
further their education and there's bound to be something that you could do as skill training,
for 3 months that you have a skill training where maybe for 3 weeks you do Joinery, another
2 weeks you try electricity , or you try plumbing to give the youth a bit of the taste of what
they could do and come September then they can pick from knowing what it was they tried
over the summer yeah I like that, ‘I would like to be an electrician’. [01:23:33:10]
Q: That sounds like a project.
EILEEN: That does sound like a project, and it’s something that I have said, y'know, for a long,
long time. [01:23:41:24] I'm not putting down the training organizations that close down
over the summer, who don't have courses over the summer; I'm not knocking them. They
don't get the resources to be able to do that and you know I just think it’s crazy when our
schools finish, last week in June and for a lot, for a lot of the older youth who are leaving
school, y’know they get through July and August and part of September before they have to
sign on - there's a lot of months there. I'm not saying all youth because a lot of the youth
come out and go into training schemes [01:24:25:13] but they don't start till September, so if
we're trying to get the work ethic, we should have something in place that’s OK when they
finish school, the second week after they finish school. They go into a training scheme to get
used to getting up, to get out of their bed, to go to somewhere. Then have a fortnights
holiday over the 12th and then come back, to get them into working mode. [01:24:51:11]
Y’know I wasn't, if I left school my mom said to me you can leave school if you want, but you
have to walk into a job, you leave school on a Friday, you'll be in employment on the Monday
and if you can't do that you're not leaving school. Now it was easier in them days to get a job,
you could have done that, move from one to the other, it’s a lot harder. A lot of our youth
are not skilled up, and a lot of the ones who are skilled have lost their jobs and they are
moving into jobs in front of the youth [01:25:20:03] and I think we should be doing skilled
based training, taking them away to be friends, down on a boot camp as such, great idea but
it’s not, you're not maintaining that …its temporary, you're doing it over the summer, you're
doing boot camp, you're taking communities together to bring them together to have fun,
we’ve been doing that for years.
�Yeah it works but unless you maintain something like that, you need to have something solid
where there's jobs, and not necessarily jobs that they walk into but if you can have schemes
put in place over 3 months when it’s our most…. fragile situation…between June and
September - if we were taking them into training schemes and working with people
[01:26:19:00] and trying to learn a skill - surely that can be maintained? …. More so…. I don't
think there's enough in it, you know I've been working in the woman's sector for a quare
while, but the woman's sector isn't the only job I have worked in. I have worked in different
community backgrounds and y’know I don't think they are putting enough money into the
adults. When you look at the present protesting that’s going on – it’s all adults - there's no
children - no youth at them, very, very few. It’s all adults so we need to be keeping that
education going for adults [01:27:01:02] as well as the youth cos you can take the youth
away, you can y’know give them courses, you can learn them to respect each others’ culture,
you can learn them to do manys a thing, but then they go home to their parents, and if their
parents says told them 'it’s a lot of auld nonsense’, so it has to be from the top down in the
family as well as the bottom up, y’know we can't just. .
The youth is our future but we have 3 or 4 generation's that’s going to be there for a fair
while so we can't put everything, all our eggs into one basket and say right we have to get
our youth sorted. [01:27:43:21] You just can't get one section of the community sorted and
forget about the rest of it so I think, as again, I’ve only read part of this report but it’s not
made easy and everybody's meeting. Richard Haas and the political representatives are
meeting, and different organizations are meeting him and they are meeting community
organizations. I'm going to a meeting in another couple of weeks time in the CRC, I just
wonder how many people they have met out of the CRC who do this fire fight 24/7, 365 days
a year. [01:28:25:03]:
Q: OK, thank you very much Eileen.
End file 01:28:36:11
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Eileen Weir
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Eileen Weir
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Untitled Story</em>, by Eileen Weir (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
30 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3464
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/1869f3f1cb0512cef797b7cfbd0da083.pdf
c47519a0159ddaa74d626caa44034d8c
PDF Text
Text
29 September 2013
Interview with:
Andrew Redican
Retired Secondary School Teacher
Venue: Abbey Arts Centre, Ballyshannon
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no:
D50010
TC Start:
06:13:21:15
Q: So Andy, you have been teaching in this area….near here for a while so tell me
about that?
ANDY: *06:13:34:00+ I taught in Drumkeeran, that’s in County Leitrim, it’s at the
Northern tip of Lough Allen, I taught there from 1967 until 2002, so I'm nearly 11 years
retired, and I lived there, I raised a family there, so I know the area pretty well, we're ….
Drumkeeran is 17 miles from the border at Belcoo, and I was thinking back on…. life and
thinking about Troubles in Ireland, I'm always…. I always feel that the old history
syllabus that I learned at school, that was the one… we went…. we started off with St
Patrick and we come up to……we came to the Treaty time, but there was never any
further, I think that was a brilliant move on the Department, because of the Civil War
and everything like that [06:14:32:08] but the way history was taught that time, it
turned, nearly all of us into, in our own mind, we were republicans in one way or
another, because, it was phenomenal …… well especially with my teacher, it was
phenomenal the way he got….. he, he made history come alive…. we shared some
triumphs - very few now…. but we shared a lot of….. losses and sadness….. and the way
he made it attractive was, when we were doing, we’d say….the, the battle…. Clontarf
[06:15:07:18] and Brian Boru and the defeat of the Danes at Clontarf - we learned the
poem:
Stand ye now, for Erin's glory,
Stand ye now for Erin's cause
�Long ye’ve grown beneath the rigors
of the Northman's savage laws
We learned poems like that, we went on then to, we’ll say…. when we were doing the
CROPPY BOY, when we were doing the Fenian's and… we, the Fenian was killed…. there
was an Irish Poem ‘Sínte ar thaobh an t-sléibhe, do chonaic me an Croppy bocht, bhí an
drúcht go trom ar a éadan, agus bhí piléar tríd a h-ucht’. So we could see, we could feel,
get that feeling of the…. the sadness, and we could nearly feel that Croppy out in the,
out there, so all aspects of history was taught that way, and when we came away, we
were… in ourselves.. y’know like, we were sort of, nearly republicans in our mind, we
may not be joined republican movements or anything *06:16:05:07+ and that’s when I,
in 1955, I remember the first campaign, it started - the one that I remember anyway, in
my time, it started in Northern Ireland - that would be the time that Seán South from
Garryowen was killed, and young O'Hanlon and you had the songs there, the songs to go
with it, there was a group of ones on the run and they were very close to our home, as a
matter of fact they got, probably ….. got milk and things like that - I remember them
getting things…. *06:16:32:02+ But nobody would ever dare… talk about them or spill on
them y'know…. even thought they were suspected as that - because ….. I suppose it
would be a bit like … the Playboy of the Western World, y’know, there was a sort of that
disrespect for authority y'know, like in the Playboy…. and the guy that did wrong we'd
say in the Playboy of the Western World, he was a hero because he killed his Dad
y'know…. so that period there that’s what I'm talking about that we…. but when I
started teaching then, I started in '67, I remember we brought, in May '68, we, we
brought School children on an outing, from the school we were in, to Belfast
[06:17:18:13] and the Troubles were just starting then, now in no way would you have
brought anyone then Northern, to Northern Ireland after that, you would never bring
children when the Troubles started, and I found that my……. wife had a sister living in
County Down, now we would go the longest way round to try and not go thru Northern
Ireland, we were afraid, we were afraid because ….well I suppose … we were Catholic…
you'd never know what would happen, and on top of that, I remember my wife telling
Finian - Finian, one of our boys, he was a bit of a smart aleck, y’know [06:17:58:07] - I'll
give you an example of him, he was celiac and he was in at the Doctor and the Doctor
said to him are you sticking to your diet? He said no, I've no glue….so when were coming
up to the checkpoint in Crossmaglen we were…. my wife was shivering - I can still see
her, I was quite tense myself and she said now make sure… make sure you don't say any
smart things to the…. to the police or the soldiers - make sure…. so it had a huge effect
on us for years there, we went a way round to Northern Ireland there *06:18:32:24+ …
Q: Getting back to the education, looking back do you feel that there was no coverage if
you like … or you weren't taught anything about the other side of the divide in Northern
Ireland?
ANDY: [06:18:51:12] …. we weren't because it was totally ignored y’know…… everything
stopped at … at the Treaty, around that time and that… because Civil War and all that,
�because….. they kept, the syllabus kept away from that completely y'know….and…..
when I started teaching, I never, I never once… I don't think the students ever knew
where my political allegiances lay because …. Well I didn't really have any anyway
y'know…. like I'd be one of those that would change governments at the next election, I
wasn't tied to a party now - me father was very much tied to Fine Gael [06:19:29:21] so
he was and, me older brother might be more pro Sinn Féin at the time y'know… but
definitely, that was one thing I made my policy when I went to school, I never discussed
politics or conflict as such. [06:19:46:16]
Q: So the Troubles broke out in 1969 with the start of civil rights….and then, working as
a teacher, that obviously made you conscious of, if you were sensitive to the fact that
you say you were brought up as a republican whether you liked it or not… did you tailor
your history teaching as the troubles developed in the North?
ANDY: [06:20:11:21] Yeah, well you see the Troubles in the North …. I think what
happened was… in the area that I was teaching in, that community, the area there….
the Hunger Strikes - that changed a lot of peoples’ attitudes at the time….it was…. and a
lot of people joined Sinn Féin at that time, so you’d be very reluctant to discuss much
about Northern Ireland at all because… just in case, y'know like, you never know whose
what – d’you understand that? But it did leave its mark and …. after …. We’d say after
the, the Hunger strikes, the Sinn Féin party got much stronger in our area, so they did
[06:21:01:08] which I don't think is too bad I think at the moment because they are now
going for elected, y’know like democratic politics and things like that so [06:21:12:14]
Q: You’re dealing with young children, so in the same way as your teachers had an
influence on you, you therefore, could exert some sort of influence over them in very
subtle ways? Did you sense from the kids some of the influence of their own parents?
ANDY: [06:21:33:15] ….oh yeah…..you'd get that… you'd get that coming across that,
there at times and …. you'd notice as well maybe ….maybe attitude, maybe from one
child to another, maybe indirectly related to politics but you try to, talk y'know like, you
try to steer them away from politics altogether, that was my way of dealing with
things….. one of the best things I did, reluctantly I hadn't done it when I was teaching,
was I … followed a course in … a certificate in drama, community drama with Smashing
Times Theatre, and it was all ….. done… the course was done in Northern Ireland, and it
was Catholic/Protestant, and I think that was one of the best things ever I experienced
in my life *06:22:24:09+ we never discussed… I never knew exactly…. who was exactly a
protestant or who was a catholic, yet you had a sense about it y'know….and I remember
having a…. we had to swap a story, I don't know if … you mightn’t know anything about
this, one the things we were asked was, as part of a theatre exercise was, you give a…
tell a story to someone else about a very important item you have y'know, and I was a
student in Cork, in the University in Cork, wouldn't have been all that diligent as a
student, and I suppose coming onto the exams I felt the pressure anyway, but my
mother, god rest her *06:23:06:24+ she sent me a … picture of the Sacred Heart and
�would you believe it I still have great faith in the Sacred Heart, but anyway that little
thing that she sent me, a little picture that size y'know, she sent it to me and I prayed to
it, definitely, prayed to the Sacred Heart and took it out and looked at it, but we did the
exams y'know and myself and another guy - he was from Belfast, he was a student down
there, he had been a cleric…… a clerical student, Kiltegan had a house there at the time,
and … *)6:23:44:19+ after the exams there was a party one night, so we went to the
party and we lasted about till about 3 o'clock I think it was, and we had I think it
Smithwicks… twas Time at the time…or Phoenix I think it was the bottles at the time, so
we came out with the tops off and one in each pocket, and we proceeded for home and
we were passing the Church of the Sacred Heart in the Mardyke in Cork, and twas the
feast of the Sacred Heart, and there was an all night vigil in the church…so I said Pete,
we'll go in and say a prayer, so the two of us went in… you could imagine now the two
of us coming in at 3 o’clock in the morning, a bottle in each pocket and a thumb stuck
down in it, anyway, we went in and we knelt down, and you could….. you could sense
people looking at us, but I didn't care, we said a prayer anyway so [06:24:36:02] we
came out and I said to Pete…. what did you pray for? And he said I prayed to get fags!
He said what did you pray for? That I get the exam and get out of this bloody place, I
said to him, and we walked on and we were coming up the road and we met this guy we knew as well, he used to drink in the, in the pub there, and he said oh the Shinners he called us the Shinners, we were with Northern Accents because down in Cork I'd
have a Northern accent, and Pete from Belfast had a Northern accent, now the Shinners,
and Pete said have you fags? And he took out a packet of cigarettes - there was 10, you
know the 10 ones, and he handed it to us and we went over and we sat on the wall and
we smoked them till …. till they were gone *06:25:20:02+ now I told that… that was the
story that I gave at that…. and when I came out I realized I gave the story to a protestant
girl, it was only after that I gave it, but she had to take my story, and it had to become
hers, that sacred heart picture was hers so she had to go along and tell it to someone
else. Now I didn't do that intentionally y'know like, it just was accidental but there it
was, we were swapping across Catholic and Protestant, and I felt that was one of the
best things we did up there was. [06:25:53:10] And the drama. On the course, each of
you brought a story and then we picked 4 stories or 3 stories at the end and they were
developed and professionally directed. And I acted the leader in the Short Strand area a republican - based on a true story by Pat Mc Cullough - he gave us his true story, and I
played his father… but one of my children …. one of my children was church, was
protestant y'know, so we were mingling out, and we worked out, so, to me I think that
the future, if we are to work really towards the future, it’ll be exchanging stories, you
know like catholic, protestant [06:26:43:22] recognizing that everybody has … entitled
to their traditions and culture, swapping them over, and seeing them, that they’re very
much part of Ireland now. There have been part of Ireland, they are now and that’s it,
and go on from there. [06:26:57:19]
Q: So do you think that, you’ve said that like it or not you were educated as a republican
or brought up in some sense, do you think that’s getting more and more diluted now
�and people really now are less concerned with those things and are they more
concerned with economic matters?
ANDY: [06:27:21:03] At the moment its all, economic matters are very, so, so there…
lot… there's a very…. depressed… oppression does that feeling in this country at the
moment - so much so there’s is a lot of negative thinking, you know what I mean,
negative thinking in…..nobody realizes, nobody was wondering where the money will
come from, yet everybody wants to get as much of it as they can, be it social welfare, be
it any old way at all and there is a great opposition to any form of, y'know like taxation
that might get us out of this here…. *06:28:00:00+ Now I know people, there are a lot of
people in terrible straits y'know they have families, they have houses bought, they have
to try and pay for it, but it is, it is permeated through society …. I find…. I find….. that
there is a gloominess [06:28:16:23]
Q: But that economic gloom permeates all society, both sides, so in a way it might
actually serve to bring people together?
ANDY: [06:28:31:08]…. yeah… I do… I know what you mean….
Q: Getting back to your point about the stories, this is what this project is about, this is
what we’re trying to explore, is by telling those stories of the past that you help them to
exorcise them? Have you had experience of that from the other side? You told your
story at that workshop, what did you hear from other people that caught your
attention?
ANDY: [06:29:02:12] ….. would you believe it……. not…. not…..
Q: I don't mean specific stories…..
ANDY: The stories they told me were, y'know like from the other side, weren't directly
y'know like, you wouldn't know… they were children's stories about sparkling and things
like that, y’know like things like…. they wouldn't ….. I never got, from the other side, I
never got a story saying about themselves y'know that type of a way…. That, you know
like their families and things…. the only time…. that I got it was… we had ones coming in
about y'know like peace building and peace reconciliation and all that type of thing,
there was one chap but the name of Declan Bowers, he was … he was a protestant, and
he was telling about the joy of his y'know like the 12th of July marches and all that type
of thing, and his father handed that down to him y’know [06:30:06:17] and you could
get from him, y'know like that he was a real….. But he was striving, and getting across,
to recognize that, we’d say people would celebrate 1916 or St Patrick’s Day or anything
y'know like things like that were nationalist, you could get that, and this was the idea
that I got from quite a lot from them up North was, if we only could share our culture…
our shared culture - and it is a shared culture only we stereotype - we have done that all
the year.. [06:30:44:04] because, I remember, my mother was a bone setter, and she set
�this woman, and when they were finished anyway they made tea and there… this was in
Leitrim now… and I'm talking now about a way back in the 1950's, and there wasn't any
trouble at that time, I think it was before that … before the Troubles started again - and
…. she got tea and when she drank it she forgot where she was and she says Oh Jesus
Christ this would scald a protestant! (laugh) twas that hot and the other one launched
into her - quite rightly so y'know… so we stereotype y'know like? [06:31:23:09] and that
has been built down though the years y'know….we, we got the feeling…. when we were
young as Catholics, we got the feeling that a protestant wouldn't go to heaven!
y'know?…..and sure the way we were taught was …. who is my neighbour? My
neighbour is all mankind of every distinction, even those who injure us or differ from us
in religion y'know like?….. *06:31:43:18+ even though - EVEN though - you see the two
words….differ from us in religion….so we grew up with different mentalities and that’s
base now at the moment… of course the problem now in Northern Ireland at the
moment, I' d say a lot of the problem, where you have the violence now that you see
there that with the flags and all that - they're … they're youngsters that are unemployed
I'd say, they're in poverty, they're there - they've nothing… they've no work and they're
y'know like - anything for a bit of craic and that’s … that’s a lot of violence I'd say at the
moment in Northern Ireland….[06:32:18:18] but then there are people behind that, I
would say, who is stirring that up, you know like stirring that up because there's money
in it [06:32:27:22]
Q: But it only appears to one side - on the unionist side?
ANDY: [06:32:33:05] Well it appears that way at the moment but … you have at the
moment …… you have what they call the Real IRA or the Continuity IRA, I don't know
what they're doing but there is a an underlying something there, I'm not… I don't know
…y’know you only pick up things there, you see the laundering of …. cross border
laundering and all that stuff - they're building up monies for something or else it’s for
personal gain or something like that y'know…*06:33:00:04+
Q: And living in the border region…. you would have been more exposed to day to day
issues of the troubles than we would say in Dublin?
ANDY: [06:33:16:19] Oh well I remember well driving down, and getting involved - they
cratered the roads between Fermanagh and Leitrim, they cratered - they cratered them
up at Kiltyclougher
Q: Who did?
ANDY: the British Army… at the time, they cratered them - they were unapproved
roads, so they cratered them - blew up them so - I remember a whole gang down filling
up the craters because that was resentment y'know like…. the isolation, you were being
cut off from your neighbour… or your neighbours on one side and the other side, that I
suppose gained support for . . . the IRA side or whatever it was at the time y’know - I
�remember it well, we were down there, driving down there myself, and my wife and
family down there in it there and watching them being filled - I didn't actually take part
but I would if I'd say if I was let I would get out…. *06:34:10:02+ and do it myself as well
y'know…
Q: AND did you have any exposure to any of the violence?
ANDY: No never, never [06:34:20:10] I was never exposed to any violence, no…. that
was … the only exposure was…. with me was the … we stopped going Northern Ireland y'know ….. we were going freely over and back to Enniskillen where you did some
shopping and things like that, and especially you could go up and down freely after …
you know like the European the EEC y'know …..like the borders…. there was no customs
there…but we didn't go up there…. but I remember clearly, after the peace process was
initiated, myself and my wife went for 4 or 5 days all up to the glens of Antrim and the
Antrim coast, and we weren't worried what type of a house we were in for bed and
breakfast, because the Peace process was there and it was a great thing… we had never
[06:35:12:24] done that before though - we had gone round as I told you to, we’d say to
her sister’s place in Annalong in County Down - we would have gone through the bad
roads in Monaghan and cross that short distance through Crossmaglen and all that, of
course we were going through one of the hot spots at the time… but it was the great
feeling that we could go up that time, up there to the North because my wife, she did
her training - she was a nurse, and she did her training in Newtownards … and she says…
she tells me that at the beginning they used to love to go to Dr. Paisleys speeches - they
were sort of a carnival type of a thing, but then everything started to polarize - you had
the civil rights marches, and they turned into… I suppose they hijacked y'know…. and
that type of way so…. *06:36:09:16+ ……. (noise in B/G)
Q : Maybe pick it up from your wife used to enjoy going to Paisley's….
ANDY: [06:36:25:14] She enjoyed going to Dr Paisleys speeches at first y'know like, and
I suppose they weren't all that bitter until the civil rights got on the go… then… and then
there was infiltration of them and of course Dr Paisley's out bursts were more…. Were I
suppose vitriolic maybe against the papacy and all this type of stuff and that took the
craic out of it y’know… but…. she loved …. She loved her years in Newtownards and
every 3 or 4 years they all meet and they go and they stay in a hotel over a weekend and
renew friendships and ….. most of them are protestant….so they are…..there are some
Catholics as well but most of them are protestant and they are great friends of my wife
and cards come every Christmas - so you see … life is *06:37:19:20+ a funny mixture isn't
it? When you look at it that way, that those people are still there and that the Troubles
that happened in the period of time, y'know didn't, didn’t break the bond of friendship
y'know….there is that …..acceptance and …. maybe …. respect I suppose, and
acceptance for another way of people's way of life and thinking and all that….
*06:37:43:14+….ok very good…. END IV
�End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Andrew Redican
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Untitled Story</em>, by Andrew Redican (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
29 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3463
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/b4daeb1251bd787d4b1929274b677b47.pdf
5bab54e1ff85df4d05b9733841482baf
PDF Text
Text
26 October 2013
Interview with:
Olivia O’Hagan
Venue: The Mac, Metropolitan Arts Centre, Belfast
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File D90008
TC Start: 01:53:00:12
Q: OK Olivia maybe you could start by telling me where you were born, grew up, the
kind of family life you had?
OLIVIA: [01:53:19:18] Well I was born outside Portadown, 1953 and I'm one of 10 in the
family and I'm the youngest of 10 so basically I was reared more or less by my sisters
and brothers, and I was the youngest, and we had a very colourful and happy childhood,
great parents and… they all were very keen for us to get educated and do well and be
part of the bigger life, and also to travel. They also encouraged us to travel, so we did a
lot of that and (01:53:59:17] then, then my parents died, my mother was 20 years
younger than my father and… she died before him of course, and then my father died.
My father died whenever I was about 19, no my mother died, my mother died
whenever I was 19 but my father whenever I was about 28, 29, yeah. [01:54:28:05]
Q: And where did you travel as a family outside?
OLIVIA: [01:54:31:00] No, no, we never went on holidays, my father was a farmer and
his season, for...the busy season for him would have been March until October, and we
grew a lot of berried fruits as well as… he went into mushrooms but very little dairy
farming but basically he was a person who grew a lot of stuff and he was the first person
to grow strawberries in and around the Portadown area. [01:55:02:05] And the first
person to grow roses for Sam McGredy and you have the black rose that he introduced
�and my father worked very strongly with him in partnership and that’s, that was the
environment I grew up in so it was lots of…. fresh fruit and vegetables daily, and lovely
fresh bread and fresh butter, we made our own butter and we slaughtered our own pigs
and we used the bladder of the pig as a football and we had good, we had a great. . very
happy memories of our childhood. [01:55:38:11] Very happy.
Q: And did all the children go to university?
OLIVIA: [01:55:42:11] And all of us went to university bar my 3 brothers. My, my two
brothers did not go to university, 1 brother was told to go to university and he refused
point blank, he said I'm staying on the farm and that was it. But the rest, all the girls,
were all sent to boarding school and all sent to university, and if, if we didn't want to
return then that was it, that was fine, it was no problem, just travel, get, get a life for
yourselves and make more out of your life than just sitting around home, so.
[01:56:16:08]
Q: Where did you move to after university?
OLIVIA: [01:56:21:03] So after university I went to work in...Chester, in the Health
Service in Chester, so I worked there for 10 years and then I came home and, I came
home about…. it was just after mommy died or while mommy was dead I was studying
at university in Manchester and then I just stayed over there, after mommy died I just
stayed over there. And whenever my sister wrote to me and told me to come home
because Daddy was living on his own and that everybody else was married, I decided
then that I would come home [01:57:01:01] and instead of Daddy dying, she died, at 43
years of age. [01:57:06:14] Very suddenly.
Q: Was it difficult to make the decision to come home considering the kinds of things
that were happening in Northern Ireland?
OLIVIA: [01:57:15:20] Well it was it was... there was a lot, a lot, a lot of things that
affected our family in a way, a number of people. . mistaken identities, they were shot
dead for…. first cousins shot dead, and my sister, the one who died at 43, she was
abducted and held at the Blackwater, until her husband drove a bomb to a pub that
served soldiers. She was abducted by the IRA, [01:57:50:11] so she was held at gunpoint
at the Blackwater river, and her husband was made drive a bomb to the pub and…
whenever he got out of the car he shouted bomb and pushed it down the hill, and the
bomb exploded, there was just a wheel left. And as soon as it was radioed through that
the bomb had been safely left outside the pub, my sister was thrown into the
Blackwater [01:58:20:00] but she didn't die, she managed to hold onto some weeds and
then she got herself out of the Blackwater and her husband was lifted by the police and
my sister was lifted by the police and they were held in the police station for 4 days.
[01:58:41:16] And they were accusing them of deliberately planting the bomb even
�though they hadn't planted it. But it was as a result of that, that I came home, and then
my sister died. It was the traumatic experience that had on her because y’know they
kept saying had they masks on? Y’know, did you know the identity of these people?
Y'know the fear and the terror of driving that bomb which was 150…a 150lb bomb over
4 major ramps [01:59:16:06] past a police station, as well, but not going to the police
station, going to a pub where - which had served British soldiers - that was the target
and it didn't… it didn't go…it went off, but it went off down the street, nobody was hurt.
But it was only shortly before she died, you know she used to have terrible nightmares,
and they basically were held at gunpoint and somebody came into the room and said
'shoot them, [01:59:45:01] that’s the easiest way to get rid of them, just shoot them’
and they were, they’re guilty’. And another detective stood in and said ‘no they are not
to be shot, they are innocent, you know these people have just come and hijacked
them, they lived in an isolated area and they've just been hijacked and they're innocent
and we're going to let them go’. [02:00:05:04] But her life was tortured after that, she
had to move house, they took the battery out of the car at night, every night, in case
somebody would do it again, they didn't put headlights into their car in case somebody
wanted to drive the car and would push them to putting in the battery but they had
taken the headlights out, their life was just a sheer and utter misery. [02:00:27:18] Total
misery.
Q: And were they targeted simply because of where they lived?
OLIVIA: [02:00:34:00] They were very, very, it was very easy and very convenient for
them to nip across the border, they, they were only a stone's throw from the border,
and there was a bridge and that, it was a footbridge and they could run over the
footbridge and my sister was held at gunpoint until the bomb was detonated and then
they left her lying there and off they went across the bridge. [02:00:59:12]
Q: And at that time there would have been no social services or no posttraumatic
services?
OLIVIA: [02:01:06:04] Oh no there was absolutely nothing, except to say that y’know
they, they were always fearful that the men would come back and shoot them because
they didn't know what they had told in the police station. They were held there for 3
days in separate rooms and interrogated, y’know they weren't allowed to sleep or
anything, so they were terrified of the men coming back to shoot them in case they had
told any stories. [02:01:31:22] So, one hand you had the pull from the police to say ‘yes
you are guilty and you are definitely guilty’, and you had the other pull, ‘these men
could come back and shoot us’, so it was a terrible situation, in that they were in, and 3
years later my sister died with a brain haemorrhage. She just could not cope with
the...strain of it and he equally couldn't. I mean he didn’t, his life just turned around, he
just sat, he just stopped farming and he just sat in the house and did nothing and he
was, he was a young man. I mean they were only in their 40's [02:02:09:09] and they
�had no family, they were just in their 40's, they were just the prime of their life and it
was just... taken away from them y'know, just the aftermath of it was horrendous.
[02:02:20:15]
SOUND: Could I get that point again, the 3 years later comment?
OLIVIA: [02:02:41:24] So it was, it was shortly after that, it was 3 years later actually
that my sister passed away, she had a brain haemorrhage. She was with me that day, I
was very fond of her, she was the second oldest in the family so she would have bought
me my first suit for my interview, and y’know she was like, with mommy dead, she was
like my second mother and, she was down with me that day and we were having fun
and y'know trying to get our lives back to as normal as it could be [02:03:12:11] and she
went back to her house that night - of course you have to remember they had to move
house, so they went across the border to a house they had across the border which
wasn't far from the other house but you had to walk across the bridge to it and she filled
her hot water bottle, she wasn't feeling all that well, she took headaches and she went
to bed and died with a brain haemorrhage. So it was, y’know it was very traumatic for all
of us, all of us, so. [02:03:41:08]
Q: Did they ever find the guys that did it?
OLIVIA: [02:03:46:19] Apparently from what I could gather, they blew themselves up
maybe 8 or 9 years, I suppose if truth be told, they did know who they were because
they didn't have masks on and whenever they were interviewed by the police they said
they had masks on because they did not want to say who they were because then they
would have brought them through another. y'know …. Y’know identity programme so
they didn't want to. So apparently, from what I could gather, the men blew themselves
up in a bomb that they were doing another mission with. . about . . I think it was about
10 years later. [02:04:26:03] So yeah….
Q: As a family were you ever asked, other than that situation, were you ever asked to be
involved?
OLIVIA: [02:04:35:01] No we weren't, we were never asked to be involved and we
weren't really very strongly minded, we, we were reared in a very cross community
environment so none of those issues would have ever been, ever have come up, and we
were never pushed to do anything, even though. . Like if you had bought a farm of land
and you might have got shots through your window for buying it from a Protestant and
you now owned it. [02:05:07:05] And even though you may have got your window's
shot through. . you, you sort of thought well, it doesn't really affect . . we were, we
were very hard working and I suppose my father was a businessman and he didn't see
the need to y'know bias, to give us any biases because he really, heavily depended on
the Protestant community to sell his strawberries and his soft fruits and his fresh fruits
�and his cabbages and all of that, to that section of the community because they were a
lot wealthier and they had a lot more money than us, or that’s what we perceived
y'know. So, we were never encouraged to do anything like that, and then with us all
going to boarding school, most of our good years [02:05:52:22] were in boarding school,
and then you came out and then you were, go and get educated, so the only ones then
that were at home really to run the farm were my 3 brothers and they. . they never,
never got involved. [02:06:07:00] We didn’t had a real reason to get involved except for
we just knew, we just knew that it wasn't right to, we just felt it wasn't our job to do
that, it wasn't. But living in that area, it was tricky because y'know, you would see the
people that would have been helping you with the hay during the day, maybe with a
shotgun that night, maybe planning to shoot you. [02:06:35:15] You know my brother
woke up one night and his next door neighbour had a gun and he was about to shoot
him, and he saw him, and he ran off, just because of something maybe that happened in
the area, y'know like we might have bought land and we might have y’know maybe. .
There was one other occasion [02:06:58:02] where my father bought a house and he
was told not to, not to buy it and then that night there were shots put through the
window, y'know. Or these men stopping you along the road and saying we know who
you are and we're going to get you, but it was, it was very difficult, it was very difficult
times and you didn't know who to trust so you just, you just kept yourself to yourself
and didn't, didn't bother. . didn't…. and y'know ….. you didn't get angry whenever you
heard of all the people being shot dead, you just thought when is this ever going to end?
[02:07:34:04]Will we be next? We are going to be next. Cos you did feel very vulnerable,
even if you were in a car at night and you were driving along a lonely road, they could
jump out. And they did jump out 'where are you going, who, who are you??’. You knew
exactly, whenever you would say the name, they would say ' and where are you going
now? And who are you? And where are you from? And who’s your mother? And who’s
your father? And they would just go on and on and on and you were standing there
totally, totally at their mercy [02:08:06:16] and you knew, and the gun wasn't far from
you, that they could have shot you. [02:08:14:03]
Q: Would you have felt protected by the British Army when they came?
OLIVIA: [02:08:54:09] Right, so when the British Army came, I didn't feel any more
protected, you just did not feel protected at all in any manner of means because you
were a very vulnerable person, you were as vulnerable walking down the street where a
bomb could've gone off as you would have been in a car at night. And where we lived,
very lonely roads, y'know, high hedges and you could see them, you could see the Army
and the military moving around the area and your heart just stopped whenever you
were stopped in the car, and you know it would have happened very, very often, you
were continually stopped, [02:09:41:01] searched, get out of the car, where are you
going, who are you with? Y'know, who’s , who are your . . your back . . who are your
passengers in the back? Get out, do the search of the back car, the boot, do the engine,
go underneath the car, everything, and that was routine. And then you sort of got into
�the swing of it and into the way of it and you just, you just, you just felt yourself very
vulnerable. [02:10:08:09] As opposed to being protected.
Q. Now, how have things changed?
OLIVIA: [02:10:16:08] So things have changed, probably things have changed for the
better in that you don't have the searching, you don't have all the army searches, you
don't feel as vulnerable on the road, you don't, you're not scared of. . in the car on your
own at night, you're not scared of a car driving behind you and maybe following you for
the guts of your journey y'know, and even, so you feel much more at ease... and less
vulnerable. [02:10:58:15]
Q: Would you have gone to the 12th celebrations?
OLIVIA: [02:11:25:08] I would never have gone to the 12th celebrations, never, simply
because I wouldn’t, well first of all, fear, because your own side would not support you,
and also if the, if the Orangemen had a known you were a catholic you don't know what
they would have done with you, it wasn't worth the risk. You wouldn't even watch it on
the television, and they used to walk past your house, your door y'know. They used to
walk down the road and you just closed the door and you never looked out you just
didn't want any interaction with them whatsoever. [02:12:05:15] So that it would not
put you in any jeopardy or any fear of them coming around for retaliation, that was
definitely a no. [02:12:14:13]
Q: What do you think the future is going to hold for Northern Ireland?
OLIVIA: [02:13:32:18] The future for Northern Ireland is... not going to change in my
lifetime, very much . . but it’s a very, very . . we're going at a snail's pace and that's the
way it will go and I think that's the only way it can go because, y’know, you just can't
turn it around overnight. Cos there has been so much that has gone on and every now
and again whenever it raises its head you sort of say to yourself, you know what, we're
not really all that far, far on but we're going at a snail's pace and that snail's pace is for
the better and for the future and it’s much more positive than it has been. I mean
there's a lot of good things have happened and yes, but it’ll be at a snail's pace and it
won't be in my lifetime. [02:14:28:06] Like for example a united Ireland won’t be in my
lifetime. [02:14:32:12]
Q: Would you like to see a United Ireland?
OLIVIA: [02:14:34:00] I don't see what advantages there going, there would be, to me, a
United Ireland, I probably would say maybe, y’know you’re maybe stronger as a country
going together but we are only such a small piece of that island, I don't, I don’t really see
any…. I just see we are so small, does it really make a difference whether you are a
�united Ireland or not? [02:15:03:12] I don't, don't see any benefit, I don't see any
benefit that we would gain from it. [02:15:09:15]
Q; Can you talk a little about the arts and how being involved in drama involved in cross
border, cross community stuff?
OLIVIA: [02:15:19:23] Well the drama and the cross community stuff, was a great outlet,
for myself who had just come back from working in Chester and, to me it was a great
opportunity to get into different communities and to be accepted by ALL communities
because once certain people hear your name or know who you are or where you're
from, then they make the assumptions oh they’re. . they box you….they box you off but
being in a, by being in the drama facilitation, it sort of releases all those tensions,
releases the tensions from the people, the cross community that you're working with.
And you all realize, after a while, we're all on the same level, we're all on the same
playing field [02:16:14:09] and nobody really wants to upset anybody and everybody
has a story to tell. So it has been a great release of, your thinking, it has really helped in
your creativity and looking at, at different ways and also not to be as judgmental
y'know. You could have been very judgmental if you have been in single, but now that
you’re sort of working across all disciplines and all nationalities and all. . taking all . .
everybody on board, to me it has given a great sense of balance to your own perception
of people and makes you less opinionated and gives you a better judge . . less
judgmental. [02:17:03:14]
End file [02:17:12:23]
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Olivia O’Hagan
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Olivia O'Hagan
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Untitled Story</em>, by Olivia O’Hagan (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 October 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDV version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3462
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/120bc6b0ae19511165697722b6799357.pdf
91510638158e8000ca26ffbf6bcc5bc9
PDF Text
Text
23 November 2013
Interview with:
Charlie McMenamin
Venue: Gasyards Arts Centre, Derry
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
FILE NO:
TC START
ST0024
02:13:51:21
Q: Maybe you could start Charlie by telling us where you grew up and a bit about your
family?
CHARLIE: [02:14:16:10] I grew up in the Bogside area of the city here and, not far away
from here, near the interface where I now work at times, a place called Howard Street that’s where I grew up and that’s where there were …troubles…whatever people want to
call it… that’s where I first encountered it. [02:14:38:01] Because I woke up one morning
and there was a barricade built outside my house. The barricade was to prevent people
from the Unionist community and the Police, who were 99% Unionist, made up from
people from the Unionist community at the time, coming in and attacking our community.
But we, we were moved out of it and moved to prefabs on Foyle road, as part of that
protection - to try and protect us - and while we were away our homes were wrecked by
the B-Specials. [02:15:12:15] Several years later, not several years, but not too long after
it….the British Army came into the North of Ireland and my Grandmother lived at the, the
heart of it which was up at Butcher's gate - she lived in what we know as the High Flats –
and my Grandmother would have sent me up with tea and sandwiches for the British
Army - they were quite friendly at that stage - everyone welcomed them because they
believed that they were there to protect us from the bad people in the Unionist
community. [02:15:49:23] I didn't know, I wasn't taught that there was Protestants and
Catholics…I wasn't… religion never really came into it for a lot of us… so I, I didn't really
understand at that age ….. so the first really bad experience we had was… Bloody
Sunday… I lived inCreggan at the time and the march passed down [02:16:16:24] by our
house, down Rathlin Drive. People were singing, I think it was 'we shall overcome', that
�was the song and it always stood out in my mind. But later on that day… y'know 1000's of
people passed out house, but later on that day people were coming back and they were
crying and upset and we were hearing about all these different incidents where people
wet getting shot. First of all people were injured, shot and injured and then we heard
people were dead. A fellow called Seosamh Mahon was shot from our street and other
people in the Creggan area were shot dead. [02:16:58:08] I was young at the time, I just
knew that 13 people had been killed and, and a lot of people injured. Bloody Sunday had
the effect of….. Most people my age group were pretty innocent and wouldn't have really
become involved in anything, I think….. throughout their lives, only for incidents like
Bloody Sunday…. and you heard about incidents where other people from other
communities were killed as well and British Soldiers were killed and Policemen were killed
- you didn’t really care because of what happened in your community. [02:17:36:14] So as
I grew up in, in the Bogside throughout the years, we had the British Army there all the
time, we had the RUC, it was a very oppressive atmosphere. I didn't really think about it
that way at the time - just thought it was terrible the way they were harassing us and
stopping us and it seemed so unfair and unjust, and they could raid your home, which
they did on Motorman [02:18:02:14], at any time. All of the homes in the Bogside were
raided, [02:18:07:23] a lot of homes were raided on a daily basis, so we grew up in that
atmosphere where these strangers were in our city and they were searching our homes.
And it’s funny because I met, in the past 10 years, with a former British soldier who said
that he joined the British Army to see the world and he ended up in a housing estate in
Creggan that had the same type of houses that he had …from where he came from in
Manchester. [02:18:38:24] So…. as the years went on we had all those experiences y'know I could have been arrested any day and held for 4 hours by the British Army,
beaten and abused and stuff like that - that happened on a regular basis - didn't really pay
much attention to us cos we were young and it sort of bounced off usy’know but… I'm
sure it had an effect on some people …. I threw stones at the British Army, I threw stones
at the Police, I rioted, I was up in court for rioting y'know so…. [02:19:15:09] I would still
classify myself as innocent enough but…. the worst experience I ever had was at 16 years
of age, I was arrested in April 1978….. Easter Sunday 1978, from my home, and I was taken
to Strand Road police station, or barracks as we called it at the time, because it wasn't
really known as a police station…… I had no parents with me, my parents asked could they
come with me and they were told no, and they asked about legal and they said you can’t
get anyone legal for 24 hours or whatever. [02:19:59:05] So I was taken away in this
armoured vehicle with about 7 British soldiers - heavily armed - and a policeman, as they
called themselves… I was taken to Strand Road. I was stripped of every possession I had in
my pockets, my shoelaces, my belt, all that, so everything was taken off me that….they’re
wee luxuries in life y'know, if you have a tissue in your pocket you’d like to hold onto it they take it off you - they take everything off you, so you had nothing and you had
nobody, so I was taken up a stairs [02:20:37:02] after a while - after seeing a doctor and
everything else - told the doctor that, that I was tired, I was nervous - cos I was up very
late the night before - I sat up listening to music till about 3, 4 in the morning - they raided
our house at 5, so I had very little sleep - so I was taken up the stairs by two grown men
and…. So, you know why you're here and stuff like that and they accused me of being
�involved in the murder of a policeman, and straight away I panicked I went 'what
policeman?'. I wouldn't know, y’know, you're taking to the wrong person - this went on
for hours - they kept swapping policemen and, and I think it was about 4 hours altogether
this went on for before… and these were all big men, some of these men were …. I'm not
going to say what age I am now but some of these men were my age now and they were
pretty big strong sortaguys y'know and very oppressive [02:21:28:03] you know right up
into your face, chair beside you y'know. You could picture me 16 years of age, I was no
size then like and I had no sense, y'know I didn't, I had absolutely no sense, I would, I
would say I wasn't the brightest spark on the block y'know so…… after a few hours they
kept..they brought in all these papers and files and stuff, ‘you were seen in this area and
this is where the shooting happened and this is what that happened and there's a
shooting happening there so many years ago maybe you were involved in that, maybe you
weren't involved in the murder, maybe you were just involved in this wee shooting or
maybe hijacked a car or something’, they kept at me and kept at me and…. ‘are you in the
junior wing of the IRA’….stuff like that. [02:22:36:16] I …. kept denying everything and
kept saying no I’m not involved in anything , I wasn't involved in anything - then they
started slapping me about, pull my hair…. making me stand up, making me sit down,
telling me that I was never going to see my parents and stuff like that and telling me also
that…. they were going to tell people in the community that I was a police informer – very,
very strong psychological stuff [02:23:06:18] so…. at one stage one of them just came into
the room to me - big guy - I could tell you his name but I'm not going to mention it,
because I don't even think he deserves to get his name mentioned, right up to me and at
me and at me and at me and I just said 'what do you want me to say?……. what do you
want me to say?' So I admitted… he said 'look if you admit being involved in this
organisation, we'll get you out and you'll see your parents and we'll get you out on bail
and stuff and we'll get off in the court case …..' so …….under……… under threat I signed
the statement [02:23:52:12] and……. admitted being involved in the Junior wing of the IRA
…. which I wasn't …. and…. I thought ' this is good, it’ll be over and done with nowy’know,
and I'll get out of here and I'll be able to tell my mother and father that I only done it to
get out of the place - so the minute I made a statement, two more came into the room
and they said we’re only starting ….so they gave me, issued me with a warrant that they
wanted me to tell more when I come up in the next interview and …. I decided…….. At that
stage that I was going to ask to see a doctor when I go downstairs because of, I felt they
had been pulling at my hair and stuff and I had a slap on the ear as well and my ears were
buzzing so when I went down the stairs [02:24:50:22] there was a radiator in the cell and
on the radiator was a screw, and I got a plastic cup, or a plastic spoon and started
screwing the screw out, and I got the screw out and then I started hacking at both of me
wrists, on both sides, ….and ….. There were a lot of blood and stuff like that and so I just
sat there - I didn't know what to do - it wasn't really making an impact y’know because it
was quite blunt - and I always say to people y'know if I had had a Stanley knife I’d have
been dead now [02:25:30:19] or if I had had a sharper implement I’d have been dead now.
That’s how oppressed I felt, and how hurt I felt at that stage, and how fearful I was of
going back up to be interviewed…… so… when all this is happening there was a lot of
movement outside, there was a lot of shouting and bawling and stuff, apparently they
�arrested a large group of men in Derry that day, who were marching in uniform,it was
Easter Sunday [02:26:01:02] and they had arrested them at the border and they brought
them all in so there was all this shouting and bawling and stuff…. and people kept lifting
the …the hatch and slamming it down, and looking in and shouting in at me and stuff - I
think it was the policemen - you know people would be saying 'is that him there? Yeah
that's him there, he was involved in the murder of a policeman…. y'know blah blah
blah'….. so when they did open the cell eventually to give me food, which I didn't eat, cos I
wasn't….. I just didn't feel at that stage that I cared about anything… but the blood - they
seen the blood and stuff so I thought, they'll take me to hospital and I'll tell the people in
the hospital [02:26:46:17] what happened and what's going on and …. why I done it and
stuff like that. They sent for a doctor, the doctor took me in and….. He looked at my hand,
asked me why I done it and I told him, I told him what had happened up the stairs and he
wrote everything down and he put bandages on my arms and I said to him 'is that it?". He
said' that's it'. 02:27:13:19] I said are you not going to send me to hospital? No, no, no, he
said I don't think the injuries are bad enough…. and …… about 15 minutes after it, after I
seen the doctor, I was taken back upstairs again and they were laughing at me because I
had tried to cut my wrists, made it worse for me…… so it was the same sort of scenario for
the next 48 hours. I hadn't seen my parents, I hadn't seen any legal people to tell me not
to do it [02:27:50:22] but I admitted being involved in 3 attempted murders, collecting
information, membership of the Junior wing of the IRA, all based on what they’d brought
in on files, they saidy’know what about this - everything was around that area near the
barracks cos I lived not far away from it anyway, so these grown men had convinced me in
3 days in Strand Road that I was involved in something and that I had taken part in all
sorts of incidents that I knew practically nothing about. [02:28:28:06] ….. I went to jail, I
spent 3 years in prison, luckily enough I didn't do as long as a lot of other people….
because I was so young, the Judge decided that he was going to give me a chance. I
pleaded guilty but I pleaded guilty under duress, my legal people had advised me that if I
fight the case, that I could get 20 years in prison and I wasn't…I was …. when I went to
court, I felt just as oppressed by what my legal people were telling me as I did at the hands
of the police. [02:29:05:23] In the meantime, we had found out that when one of the
shooting incidents happened, I had been somewhere else and we were able to produce
evidence of that during the bail application but my legal people told me it doesn't matter,
that charge might be dropped but the rest of the charges will proceed, and I felt that
because there was a discrepancy with one charge that if we went to court that the rest
would be thrown out because there was no proof, only my evidence - the only evidence
they had was what I said, what I admitted, I admitted being involved in hijacking a car but
they had no evidence, no statement from a person who had a car hijacked. The police put
all of this into my mind and into my head [02:29:52:03] and, and to me they call
themselves policemen but they weren't policemen per se, they weren't real policemen…. I
done 3 years in prison and when I came out of prison, I came out very angry. It was the
start of the hunger strike campaign. I got involved in that, and I’ve been involved in every
aspect of political struggle in this city ever since. And in 2007 I took my case through the
criminal cases review commission, back to court and I got all of my charges cleared, got
my name cleared, it took a long time but I knew I would do it eventually. And the reason
�that started is because I took part in a programme towards - called 'Towards
Understanding and Healing' [02:30:41:23] and it allowed me to tell my story. Up until
theny’know everyone was saying y'know that didn't happen and this… even the politicians
at the time were saying it didn't happen. John Hume, went to John Hume, he didn't want
to know, done nothing for me, done nothing for my mother while I was in prison….. said
that the police …. that if the police made the allegations then there must be some sort of
fact in them, so I was left, all those years feeling…. knowing that a wrong was done on me
….and knowing that there was no justice, no fairness …. and no….. equality depending on
where you came in the community. [02:31:27:10] So…. 2007 as I said, I went to court, the
judges were flabbergasted by what they were reading and what they were seeing and
they said it should never have happened. I got my name cleared and, and I've also, I’ve
been compensated for what happened to me so. And it wasn't about compensation, it
was about doing the right thing, and several other people since have taken their cases
back to court as well and won them on the basis, the same basis as myself. [02:32:00:09]
There was one case that followed me which is upcoming very soon - a case called the
Derry 4. They were in the same position, they all admitted being involved in a murder of a
British soldier who was shot on Valentine's day in 1979 and they ended up in prison along
with me as well, so their case has been thrown out of court since as well, same detectives
were involved in my case ….. I think it was just symptomatic of the whole police force, or
service, or whatever they want to call themselves, at the time, that….. it was rife right
across it, that they were just… they wanted to right up the books, clear the books and the
easiest way to do it was to get people like myself to admit to being involved in stuff that
we weren't involved in. [02:32:52:07] So…. in recent years, I've been involved in….. with
groups like the Peace and Reconciliation Group and the Alexander House Interface Group,
it’s being going about 10 years and it started off when the young people between both
communities were fighting with each other and it was getting very serious, it was affecting
the lives of the elderly people in the area so a large group of people from our area decided
that they were going to take it on –and especially challenge the sectarian nature of some
of it and… [02:33:33:06] I've used my experiences from being in prison myself, being
arrested by the police and helping young people to move away from that, that sort of
violence, that they were getting involved in …and….. The greatest payment for me….. out
of all the….the years is when young people come to me now and shake my hand and say
thank you very much for helping me…. I always think it…. and it really, really rewards me
to see that happening because when I was their ages, no-one stood up and fought my
corner for me and that’s what I do now with young people. I fight their corner for them,
and any young people who are in trouble with the police, I will go and fight with the
police, for them …..[02:34:23:11] I've done it on the streets and I've done it in police
stations …and, and it’s about making change and it’s about ….small change that we make
but it makes a bigger difference to the overall picture here. And I have to say…… one of
the young people that I tried to help, going back after 10 years, it was a young boy called
Ciaran Doherty. Done everything I could for him, tried to get him away from it, and I have
to say for the young people now, the message that they should get is, Ciaran Doherty was
found dead several years ago, he was found shot dead, the person who found him was
me. And I have to say that….. the effect of that to me is that I done all I could for Ciaran
�Doherty to try and get him away from it …. and….. my message to young people now is ….
live your life, enjoy your life, live for Ireland, don't die for Ireland. [02:35:28:23]
Q. Thank you very much.
End TC 02:35:37:22
File ST0026
Part 2 of 2TC
Start 02:35:37:23
Q: What was it like to have that experience of using your body to act out some of the . . (in
the workshop)?
CHARLIE: [02:35:47:19] I've done some of that before, today I found very difficult
y’knowbecause . . . y’knowwhat I said earlier, the story I told earlier. I always say
sometimes my story is not important as other peoples’ and I've had people say that to me
as well. I don't care where people come from, what their story is …or…..or……. how my
story affected me ,everyone's story is the same, my…. what happened to me affected me,
it affected my family, it affected my friends, some of my friends are dead because of what
happened to me. [02:36:27:18] So……. today…it’s good to express it and it’s good to hear
other peoples’ stories, and as I work with the Bloody Sunday families over in London and
down in the Guildhall, in the past as a support worker, I only thought I knew the story of
Bloody Sunday. I got the real live stories from those people during the time I was in
London and the time I was down in the Guildhall, I got their real lives….I didn’t know…..
And a lot of people in Derry didn't know their stories, and still don't know their stories and
I would love to just see it just come to…. [02:37:11:13] That they would have some sort of
closure because the pain, I feel, for them is still there. And today to me, seeing some of
what Kay said as well…..is….. I relive it, I relive it every time I hear it, and I relive
their…..the pain that I've heard them talk about in the past, every time I hear it.
[02:37:37:16]
Q: Is it important to have an opportunity to tell your story?
CHARLIE: [02:37:41:18]. . . Well until I had an opportunity to tell my story, I was always
looked at as a terrorist, a gunman, a bad guy, and not understood. But I always say that
some of what happened to me is a microcosm of what has happened right throughout
Ireland from the 1920's onwards where people suffered, people were divided and people
suffered pain because of struggle and because of what happened in Ireland and I always
say if we can unite and work together and hear each other’s stories, and acknowledge
each other’s stories, we can go a long way. I've heard a lot of stories and I've
acknowledged stories and people have acknowledged mine as well. I went to Israel in
2008 ….and…. when I told my story, the first person to come up and …. shake my hand and
say he believed the story was a policeman, not a former policeman, a policeman and he
�acknowledged it and he said that he will make sure in his duty and his work in the future,
that no-one will do, on anyone else, what was done on me, or anybody else in my
community.
Q: [02:39:00:20] Ok thank you very much.
End IV
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Charlie McMenamin
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Charlie McMenamin
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
7
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Charlie McMenamin (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
23 November 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3461
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/70a30eebd9b0be1c57c6f98255612110.pdf
768e6dac0bb2dd58c5babceaa2883c01
PDF Text
Text
26 October 2013
Interview with:
Maria McBride, Anne Blair, Sheila McBride (sisters)
Venue: The Mac, Belfast
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: D9000901 (file 1 of 6)
TC Start: 02:17:12:24
Q: Could you start by introducing yourselves, your names and where you're from?
MARIA: [02:17:16:01] Em I'm Maria McBride and I'm from O'Neill Avenue, originally
from O'Neill Avenue in Newry, County Down, Northern Ireland. [02:17:25:15]
ANNE: My name's Anne Blair and I live in Chapel St in Newry, County Down
[02:17:32:18]
SHEILA: I'm Sheila McBride and I'm from O'Neill Avenue too, always lived there yeah….
Q: And how do you know each other?
MARIA: [02:17:39:19] Well we're 3 sisters (laugh) so we grew up in the same house and
I suppose, it’s a bit about what came out this morning, everybody has their own
memories y'know what I remember about something is not necessarily how they
remember something, or I remember more about something and they don't remember
it at all…… but we do ….we do remember things y'know, we did grow up in the Troubles
so [02:18:07:12]
Q: How many is in the family?
MARIA: [02:18:09:07] 6 of us - 3 boys and 3 girls… so the girls stuck together like glue
and…..and we had some… the boys…one of the boys has lived in London for many a
years and the other two brothers are not just as well….so…… we have one brother that
�we get home and we're very close to him and then we look after our other two
brothers. [02:18:36:11]
Q: Maybe you could tell us a little bit about what life was like growing up in Newry?
ANNE: *02:18:48:12+ Newry ….…. I suppose to what it is now…. It’s quite spread out now
and quite…. much more populated than it was…. I’m 49 now so when I was younger it
was completely different then…….. a lot of boarded up window's - I can remember that,
as a young child seeing shops, and it didn't seem to phase you, you sort of, when you
went sometimes to another town or to a small village and that you'd notice that there
wasn't that as much but where you are there seemed to be a lot of boarded up doors
and boarded up windows - cardboards and bits of hard like plywood over windows and
that and [02:19:30:08] yeah I can remember that ….that memory …. and I remember
Bessbrook … I remember travelling out sometimes, my Mom would have liked to go out
to ….. a big furniture shop out in Bessbrook ….. what's the name of it, you know the big
furniture shop in Bessbrook ? I can't think of the name of it now, but Mom liked to go
out there, and liked to look at their furniture - mightn't have had maybe the money to
buy the things in large quantities either but liked to go out and look at the finer things in
life [02:20:05:07] you could say, and I remember going out to it - it was always an ordeal
because there was a big ….. soldiers… there was Griffiths furniture shop in Bessbrook ….
and it was a big ordeal to get into it - it was very much a walled off village because there
was an Army base there, and it was a big base, so you had to go through a lot ….of gates
….and turnstiles, and if you went in a car….. it was just unbelievable - it seemed that
every part of the car was taken out, every piece of the car was taken out and checked
over so if you wanted to go out there [02:20:43:16]…. Before, when you left Newry, by
the time you got back home, you maybe would’ve been only in the shop maybe for,
maybe an hour but you could've been away out of Newry for maybe 4 hours….. Because
it really seemed to be …. they really took your car apart ..or whatever (MARIA) it was a
fortress wasn’t it? (ANNE) Yeah, I can really remember that and I can remember on the
odd occasion when you were there, looking around ye, and it was always to me, it was a
very sinister looking place y'know…… very sinister looking….. it was big dark walls and all
this barbed wire and glass and it was like a fortress *02:21:18:01+ yeah… so I can
remember that vividly, that’s my memories of Bessbrook (MARIA) I can remember the
town being a lot smaller and older and poorer, y'know it was not very affluent the way it
nowadays and it depended what way the punt was - it would sweep and flow and ebb
didn't it? One day we were the rich cousins and then next day Dundalk was the rich
cousin and then Newry was the rich y'know… *02:21:43:09+ all of that y’know and
people coming down and being caught up in bomb scares and things and they'd be
disgusted, and we'd be thinking …. we just used to it y'know(laugh) be used to it weren't
we? We were very acclimatized to it …. And you'd see others coming in and you'd be
thinking it's not right like y'know it isn't right but we were just used to it… you just had
to sort of get on with it. but it was smaller, smaller and older and shabbier when I was
growing up, and bombed out and a bit like what Anne said - cardboard and there were
no shutters really and be all y'know sweeping up glass - you'd always hear glass being
�swept up and [02:22:22:24] window's getting boarded up – y’know it wasn't, then finally
shutters came along and it was…(yes)…. *02:22:28:19]
END FILE
FILE:
TC START:
D9000902
2:22:28:20 (File 2 of 6)
MARIA: The windows didn't seem to get blown out anymore or something, the shutters
sorta saved all that. And then you could see the face of Newry changing … you could see
a wee bit of affluence, a wee bit of money coming in wasn't it, a wee bit wealthier (yes,
yes) (ANNE) or maybe it was …. was it that the councillors that were in at that time ….
that seemed to …… I don't know …… they were into sitting down …… the politicians and
that around certain times, whoever were in at the top the parties at that time were able
to sit down maybe at times and …. with maybe the police force and that and maybe talk
with the people as well and get members from different areas to come and sit down as
well *02:23:12:23+ to maybe…. somebody started that off ….. and there was….. I don't
know …. sometimes you would look and see there was a wee bit of cohesion there, that
people were trying to sort things out, and then that would go for a while and then there
would be some big major….. something would happen y'know…. that would disintegrate
that and that would go all … away that it would be….. not good at all, it would be
very…..eh……. very dark times….. *02:23:43:03+ (MARIA) and I think because we were
like the tunnel from the South to the North, we were like the thoroughfare if you like…
and y'know…. and when those murders happened in Gibraltar y'know we knew it was
coming through our…. we were going to be hit by it and …… I can remember that …it
was really palpable sort of feeling…. or everybody was horrified about what happened
and then we were steeling ourselves for it coming down through Newry and was there
going to be trouble? and ….. *02:24:13:13+
Q: I don't know about the murders - maybe you can tell me?
MARIA: [02:24:15:18] There were a……. they said there was an active unit or….. that
there was a cell working in Gibraltar. I don't really know that much about it, it’s just my
memory was there was some kind of a cell that they had been watching and …. they
shot them in a forecourt so I think, I was thinking they should've wounded them and
everybody else was thinking that they should have wounded them but they took them
out completely - they hadn't got a chance - they just murdered them in cold….they just
were murdered, and my community would have been absolutely up in arms about that
[02:24:49:10] and outraged that y’know that they couldn’t have wounded them or they
couldn’t have handled it some better way……. and then you knew then on top of that
they were coming through your area, and the fear of that - what was going to be the
backlash of that [02:25:03:21]
�Q: Who was coming thru?
MARIA: [02:25:05:09] The bodies were coming through from Gibraltar into Dublin and
then (SHEILA) From Dublin right through into Belfast, (MARIA) and every town along
the whole countryside was out …… I can remember that, can you remember all the wee
towns and villages the whole way down through from where the body come in were out
and in Newry as well and then right the whole way down….. and it was I suppose a
people coming together to show their opposition to what had happened, but it was like
anything, it was a number of things….. *02:25:33:07+ a number of years of atrocities, and
you could find something in some other community that was done that could have been
handled differently as well so it’s just….. weighing up things, but just I can remember
that having a deep impact and then if I'm right - isn't that where it, they went on then to
murder …… the people who got mixed up in the funeral by mistake? (ANNE) yes down in
the Falls… (SHEILA) it was all around that time. it was an awful… bad, bad time yeah it
was you're right …. I remember too the …. I remember the Bloody Sunday *02:26:07:05+
the week after it, they had a big march in Newry - a civil rights march and they all came
from America - all the civil rights people came and there was an actress - she was an
English actress (ANNE) Vanessa Redgrave? (SHEILA) Vanessa Redgrave and they were
all…. I remember us standing down on the Merchants Quay watching them all
[02:26:24:10] and they had all the big bann….. all the coloured people were there - all
the civil rights people, and we couldn't believe it – it was like big stars - although it was
awful what they were doing, it was…. it was right after the Bloody Sunday and I
remember my mother coming down, Anne was only a wee baby in the pram, and my
father saying 'don't be taking that child, there'll be trouble there today' and my mommy
took hankies, cos if they used the CS gas you could always…. my mommy wet hankies
and she put them in the pram and we went down, we walked it down… I remember
walking it down….. and they DID fire CS gas and you could have your wet hanky and put
it over your mouth - there was trouble at it too [02:27:03:07] it was whenever it was
over, but I always remember Vanessa Redgrave and all these famous people in Newry,
the following …. Y’know the following week like y’know…. it always ….I thought god
y'know…..yeah… (MARIA) and then just on that too, we, we recently … in more recent
years had what was on the grounds of McCann's bakery in Newry, a museum, Bagenal’s
Castle museum was opened up there in recent times…. *02:27:30:10+ and they did…
they had like an exhibition and we happened to be up looking at the exhibition and
there was a big huge bevelled wall you know is was just not a straight wall but there was
like a big black and white....
END FILE 02:27:44:15
FILE: D9000903 (3rd of 6)
�MARIA: [02:27:44:16] the whole way around the wall, about 20ft x 20ft - huge big black
and white image and Bernadette Devlin standing with (ANNE) a young Bernadette
Devlin (MARIA) standing on top of all this rubble with all these people around her in
Newry with a loud hailer, and weren’t we able to pick out our younger brother looking
up at her like that y'know and his only his tiny face, he would have been maybe 10? So
we were pointing out ones we knew in the image and then we started to look at this
image and we realized that it was (SHEILA) the only child in among all the adults
[02:28:18:02] wasn't he Maria? (MARIA) He was there looking up at her like that so it
was real iconic times for everybody y'know - I can't remember Bernadette Devlin being
here….. no I can't really remember that but I can remember running with mommy and
then running back with the pram and then running forward with the pram, and running
back and I think that must be what Sheila’s talking about, that we were at that march
and the Army or police must have been moving in [02:28:41:21] and they were pushing
the crowds back and I think that must be that pushing back and forward, I can
remember waves of going forward and back the crowd, yes….. (SHEILA) my father kept
saying to her 'now don't be taking that child out, don't be taking… and I kept thinking
right we're going to get caught in trouble here [02:28:55:19] but we're just, mommy
ploughed on with the pram, she didn't care, yeah cos after what happened in Derry it
was just…. it happened on my birthday, I always remember thinking all them people
died that day on my birthday couldn't…. y'know it was News flashes coming on all the
time, and I kept thinking god y'know ….. it was terrible…… yeah (MARIA) and your
brothers would get stopped…. (yes) they would get stopped and you'd be raging y'know
you'd be going about as a raging child like you just knew it wasn't right [02:29:25:23]
and we had a brother who wasn't well and he was vulnerable but at the time you didn't
know what meant, you just knew he was … y'know he had to be protected and all…. and
they used to throw the lunch out of his box….. on the road and things y'know, it was
really…… y'know when the Army would stop him, they would search him and frisk him
and it wasn't right, y’know, cos he wasn't well …. but they would take… somebody
would say.. they seen them taking Eugene's piece out of his box and throwing it on the
floor, throwing it on the road [02:29:54:18] and jumping on it and things like that
y'know, so you used to be bubbling away inside and you knew it wasn't right but you
didn't know why people were doing that on each other…… no cos we didn't know really
about much politics, and then I suppose when I went to Big School we were doing Irish
history and me and my Daddy would have huge debates about that stuff, you know
about what had happened and why things were the way they were…. *02:30:17:14+
y'know… but like for example my daughter's 28 now and if I asked her what was the
Troubles about, she wouldn't have a clue, not a clue what the Troubles was about
because I didn't bring it into my house, I didn't talk about it, and even though she grew
up in it and our children y'know our nieces and nephews and all our family grew up in it
- we didn't say oh that's terrible, that happened because this and y'know…. it just didn't
happen in my house so they didn't have any….. no idea what the troubles was about,
and still to this day don't [02:30:49:00] if she studied her history y'know that she's
currently doing then she'll know it, but she doesn't know the nuances of it, she only
knows that there were Protestants and Catholics and they were fighting and people got
�killed. But she doesn't know anything more than that, behind it, back story, and that's
been good. [02:31:06:22]
Q: Would you have known any protestants growing up?
MARIA: [02:31:10:01] No …. I wouldn't have now (SHEILA) only the man that came at
Christmas time to kill our turkey (laugh) he took a turkey into the house on Christmas
eve and it was in a bag - it was still alive, but he…I remember he was a Protestant and….
y'know my father knew him from drinking in Forrester's, he would have knew him, and
he came and he killed the turkey, and he since died that man now, but he would have
been…. no we didn't really know any Protestants no….. the way schools were….. and we
were in the majority in Newry - we were always the majority which… y'know (ANNE) but
we were very privileged when I looked back although I was the youngest. [02:31:49:12]
We were very privileged in that the main care giver for us was our mother and she was
never biased, never racist, so she never, ever, spoke in the house about any par….about
any religion in particular doing this that or the other, she read newspapers, front and
back, when she got time, which wasn't very often so she was well read up on current
affairs and what was going on in Ireland at that time, both North and South, but she
never…. tried to put her opinions onto us….. she wanted her children, to a certain
degree, to find out for themselves about their neighbours [02:32:31:20] that lived in the
country with them she didn't make it her business to polarize us - I can remember that she would have protected you, if you needed to but at the same time she was not a
woman to….. put neighbour against neighbour - she would always try to tell you right
from wrong and to be…. go Christian about it, do it in a Christian way, so she was……
[02:32:59:24]
END FILE
FILE D9000904 (File 4 of 6)
ANNE: *02:33:00:00+ ….. very, very good in that sense, I can really see that…. to her……
yeah she was very good, very good at doing that…. *02:33:08:13+
Q: Would you have ever been influenced to become involved? Ever considered
becoming involved?
ANNE: [02:33:18:00] No I would never (SHEILA) no….. as I was going out to my sister's
when my sister lived in Jerretspass, I was driving out to the house and the Army…. you'd
always be nervous coming up to the checkpoints even though you done nothing wrong,
you know your heart be racing when you were coming to the checkpoints, I would say
most people would say that, but I remember the soldier saying…. he says I want to ask
you a question - I thought I wonder what he's going to ask me? …. he says em….. 'what
do you think about us being here?…. what do yous, what do you think about us being
�here? And I thought … I just says to him ' it’s not normal' …. It’s not normal, he says '
right' he says ' I wondered what to tell the people when I go…. go back home' he says '
what do you mean? I says it’s not normal, people walking about with guns and that
around the shops in Newry …… y'know…… *02:34:08:11] (ANNE) How long ago was that
Sheila? (SHEILA) Oh that was….. you were maybe not long out there Anne in Jerrets …. I
remember I was going out the road and I just… he just thought ' right ' he says that’s
interesting (ANNE) I suppose that leads into an area that I lived in? I lived in an area Jerretspass and all my neighbours would have been Protestant and I would have been
the only Catholic in it and there was only 5 houses there - it was 5 mile out of Newry
[02:34:30:05] and….. we were moving…….. both my husband and myself were Newry
people so we were moving out to this area to bring our children up out in a country area
rather than…. we were coming from a housing estate out, and from the day and hour
that I went into it, I never found better people, at Christmas time, coming to the door to
give me gifts in for the children - I've just the two children - at Easter time, at different
times - that never would have happened in Newry - what I took from them were that
they were very Christian people [02:35:02:05] good living people, they were simply into
their family, the peop.. neighbours that I had, their family, …. and that was it…. their
family and if you needed a hand they were there. That's the one overriding thing, and
that's the way I brought my two children up - my children were about 12 and 6 when we
moved out there and it was an excellent….. for them, to see…… that these people here
didn't go to the same chapel that they did or the same schools, they were the only
children in the row, my two children, the rest, there were no children, they were all
grown up and away, so that was good… I was glad that they were able to see that
[02:35:48:13]
Q: And did they have the 12th marches?
ANNE: [02:35:52:06] Well the next place to us would have been Poyntzpass - I lived in
Jerretspass which is just outside Newry and it was 5 mile and then 5 mile on from it was
Poyntzpass, and again, beautiful mix of people, from both communities that got on so,
so well …. So, so well …. and …. then there was that awful atrocity that happened out in
it- an awful crime - an awful crime that happened there, and….. they would have had,
from my memories going back, they would have had the bunting up at both times of the
year [02:36:31:12] on St. Patricks day they would have been bunting up or when Down
won or Armagh or that y'know, Gaelic teams, they would have had the bunting up for
that, and on the 12th of July there would have been the bunting up, in Poyntzpass this
was and there was never, to my knowledge, there was never, we lived there for 13
years, there was never any trouble, there was never any problems with that because…..
I think the mentality in that particular village at that time too was…. there was so many
fields around them - they were hard working people, they were in again to their family
to bringing them up doing the best they could do, and they wanted their children to be
brought up the same *02:37:14:06+ y'know so they didn't have the……that was really
what took their whole day up 24/7 y'know so ….. and in Jerretspass, I think maybe the
�first year that I moved out there might have been bunting up, but I think after what
happened in Poyntzpass there was never bunting up again in Jerretspass.
Q. What happened?
ANNE: [02:37:36:05] It was very subtly done,
Q. What happened in Poyntzpass?
ANNE: [02:37:38:20] There was a shooting in Poyntzpass, a shooting in what would have
been a wee pub that would have been there a long, long time and people from both
communities would have went into this pub, this was your typical….. wee snug pub I
would call it, just a wee pub where people went into maybe one night a week, 2 nights a
week whatever, it was like going into your corner shop, into the shop on your street for
your newspaper that they went in there…. and they maybe had a drink, or they didn't
have a drink - it was the sort of a place for conversation, conversation flowed lovely…
[02:38:15:20]
END FILE
FILE D9000905 (File 5 of 6)
TC [02:38:15:21+ …(ANNE continued ) ….. lovely atmosphere in it and….. there was a
shooting - there were two men shot in it, one, each man was from both communities,
one from each community, one Catholic and one Protestant….. and it was absolutely…….
oh I don't know, it was …. I couldn't put it into words….. what those people felt like at
that time when that awful atrocity came to their… *02:38:22+
Q: Was it sectarian?
ANNE: It was, I think so, I think so….. (MARIA) and they were two best friends from both
sides of the community. (ANNE) It was sectarian [02:38:52:23] (MARIA) so it was around
the time - you know that tit for tat going on? And one side was having something done
and so the other side ….and it was around Greysteel and all of that (ANNE) thats right Greysteel… (MARIA) it was all around that, pub and club and bars being hit and night
clubs and things like that so it had shifted at that… it was a very big shift going into a
community and going into a definite place to get somebody, it was much less random,
[02:39:18:07] I felt, and those 2 men were shot, and they were best friends – went, they
lived together, worked together, socialized together, and the two of them were shot
together, and the whole community came in at that didn't they? (ANNE) Yes it was
awful….. (MARIA) everybody - it didn't matter, religion really didn't come into it at that
point, and for the grieving families y'know …… but it had a huge impact on the
community, and in…. in Newry as well…. It’s not far from us y'know? [02:39:47:11] So
�it…… honed people at that point to try and do more and do better and step up to the
plate and y'know stop the violence…. y'know it really did…. it was coming closer and
closer all the time. [02:40:05:08]
Q. Would it have it come into your estate when you were growing up?
MARIA: [02:40:07:07] Yeah….. ,Q: the violence?} yeah, they would have been building
bonfires….. building barricades and things and pulling down parts of the area we lived to
make barricades and cars would have been taken off people and burnt out and you
wouldn't have been able to drive a car down the hill or up the hill or …. And all the
road….Y’know I remember coming out of school, cos my … I just came out the gate of
school, turned right, turned right and up the hill and there was our house, and the
school was on that hill [02:40:39:06] and I can remember seeing all the ground and the
road burnt like a big burn hole in the ground thinking oh that’s terrible ……. but not the
fact that a car had been burnt and it was possibly somebody's livelihood, a van, that
they used for work with their tools…. it was all very… it was almost sometimes the
community turning in on itself y'know it was…. crazy times, y’know…. but you'd hear
bombs going off, and sirens and the fire alarm, fire brigade, you just think to yourself
god I wonder where that is? [02:41:11:06] It was so matter of fact….. (SHEILA) sometime
too the Army - you could hear them coming in on the TV - we could hear the police we'd be listening in the bed downstairs - they'd be a room downstairs - it would cut in
on the… we could hear them - the time that the Radcliffe’s - there was 2 fellas went in
and they set it on fire - 2 men - young men - it was very sad and the shop is all wood and
they set it on fire, and they couldn't get out then, they set it on fire at the back I think,
and then the fire come right through and they were trying to get out and somebody said
the Army was watching them and they didn't even break the window - that was the
whole talk at the time [02:41:47:23] that, where the Army just stood there and didn't do
anything but I don't know if that’s true but we could hear that all coming in on the…on
the TV - cutting in about something Radcliffe’s, Radcliffe’s and then the next morning……
there was two of them that didn't get out, cos the whole place was all wood - they
didn't think, they thought they could get out the front, but that was an awful thing too
y’know [02:42:08:14] yeah cos the Army came on it at the time and they saw the flames
and all but … I don't know - somebody said that they didn't help them and that was
awful…. but y'know, God I don't know …… (MARIA) and you were always terrified of the
Paratroopers and you knew their beret, you knew their beret and you knew what the
front of the beret looked like . . and everybody in our community knew what they
looked like [02:42:29:22]. We knew when it was their tour of duty, when they were
coming in again - well I did anyway I don't know about yous girls ? (yeah …yeah) and you
always knew when the purple berets were in, you were like in for the diggin's - wasn't
going to be good….. (ANNE) you stayed close to the house … you didn't stray too far,
yeah you sort of stayed close, more closer to your house and you would have been
more aware of where your brothers were maybe, keeping an eye out, you know things
like that yeah you have felt that a bit [02:42:59:08] of a threat.
�Q. Why?
MARIA: [02:43:02:09] Cos they were the platoon were in when Bloody Sunday
happened and so they were marked forever….. forever will be marked for that y'know
…. and anybody that’s from my community will always… if you ask them who were the
platoon that was in on Bloody Sunday and I'd be shocked if anybody couldn't tell you
that so they were burnt on our brains that they were the ones that done that and they
were these high flying (ANNE) people maybe felt that they'd no conscience (yeah)
they'd no conscience about what they did (MARIA) but really there was…..
END FILE 02:43:31:16
FILE D9000906 (File 6 of 6)
TC [02:43:31:17]
MARIA: Bad on all parts… you know as an adult you can see that but back then when
you're a young person, you don't know that and you just see it as a lump of thing…a
per…. A, an entity …… but….. that was always a lasting memory for me, I could draw you
the beret, I know exactly what it looks like and I'm not an Army person at all but it was
to be on the lookout, I mean you seen it you were terrorized by them cos they were…. in
my mind they were this…. high octane group of people who were.
SHEILA: Killers.
MARIA: All singing, all dancing…. they were powerful, absolutely powerful above all the
other brigades (yes) (SHEILA) more vicious *02:44:09:04+ you would have said… people
would have feared them more…. there would be different regiments coming and we'd
be looking at their hats to see what they were wearing - the Scottish would have a wee
thing on their beret here, a wee feather or some sort of wee thing, different, we'd be
saying, I wonder what the name of that regiment is ? But when it was the Paratroopers
yeah they were like purple with a wee badge on here… but people, after Bloody Sunday,
people would have been very wary of them [02:44:32:23] yeah with their boys being out
late at night yeah cos they just thought they weren't good….. *02:44:39:16+
Q. When the British soldiers came, they came primarily as protection for the Catholic
communities, what, was it Bloody Sunday that turned all that? How were they received?
ANNE: [02:44:59:03] Do you remember when the tide turned from them being…
(SHEILA) it was all tea in Belfast, they kept showing that, y'know they were making them
tea and they were all glad to see them cos I think all these houses got burnt in Bombay
Street, the whole row of houses, people all had to leave, they were all put out of their
houses and then…. things started going wrong… the young ones I think started firing
�stones at them and things just started going wrong. It wasn't normal, the Army being
there and I think the young ones just started firing stones at them and stuff and then it
would escalate and then they would kill people and *02:45:34:01+ and then…y'know it
just seemed to… (MARIA) I think it was a short term problem - it was to be a bit of
sticking plaster and then… it was, I mean if you had asked anybody back then including
them, you're going to be here for x amount of years, they would have laughed, because
they were literally to be put in, calm the situation down - a peace keeping force - here to
rescue everybody as the Catholics saw it, here to rescue all the Catholics…. Oh I don't
know what, why people thought that, and I can't give you one reason for why there was
a shift but there was a definite shift *02:46:10:01+ ………but I have feeling that there was
an upsurge and an uprising of people at that time and ….. it was like a political thing - it
was to do with the Troubles but it was to do with (ANNE speaking over in B/G) it was the
vote and…. yes (MARIA) yes it was civil rights and one man one vote and y'know lack of
housing and all of that, it was like a revolt, it was like a …… a time of revolt…. people
wouldn't tolerate any more and I think that really….. the climate changed, people were
warming up to the idea of….. we can get out on the streets here and do something
about this y'know we can. [02:46:44:20]
Q: Do you think it will ever go back to that again, where do you think the future's going
to be?
MARIA: [02:46:48:00] No I don't think …… I personally don't think it will go back to it cos
there's too many people on the side of wanting it to push forward (SHEILA) no we look
forward now don't we? Not look back…. (ANNE) but there's always going to be
anarchists (SHEILA) that’s the touble we seem to be stuck in the past y'know…. too …
like y'know….. no we wouldn't want to go back to that again…. no ….. definitely not, cos
a lot of peoples are leaving now and emigrating, they're leaving every day from Dublin
airport, all the young ones and they can't get jobs and…… we're losing at lot of people
and…… these people will not be taking . . . y'know money in for to keep the work here
like y'know *02:47:26:19+ anybody that’s wanting to start jobs here it’s not….. y'know it’s
……. we need to move forward really y'know.[02:47:36:07]
Q: Is there anything else you want to say?
MARIA: [02:47:39:03] Well I would just like to see more women in politics (laugh). I
always bang on about that but I think y'know, women have a particular place to …. to
play in this part of the world and their… y'know …. for whatever reason - well I
understand the reasons why they don't, why nobody gets involved in politics here, cos
its like crazy, y'know its enough to put you crazy but….. hopefully we're moving into a
time of peace now [02:48:05:12] and y'know and that women will start ….. y'know
young women coming up through the ranks will start to get… garner support and have a
voice y'know…. and bring their skills in politics, whereas we're really…. bereft of that
it’s….. it’s mostly men making political decisions. (ANNE) But I think a lot of that too has
�to do with women helping women……. women seeing women, no matter in what walk
of life they’re in, as their sisters and enabling them and empowering them, sometimes
women, depending on how they are brought up they can, if they see another woman
*02:48:40:09+ eh….. trying to better herself…. they can feel…. y'know that its ….
[02:28:47:12] END FILE
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Trancript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
12
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Maria McBride, Anne Blair, and Sheila McBride (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
26 October 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3460
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/7dfbfde58863eec61f497614c11b1edd.pdf
99126856270581159ba86d8beffcc013
PDF Text
Text
23 November 2013
Interview with:
Kay Green, neé Duddy,
Venue: Gasyard Arts Centre, Derry
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: ST0027
TC START: 02:39:06:06
Q: First of all … its similar stuff to what Charlie was talking about, but maybe you could
just start and let me know what was it like to get your story acted out in the way it was
done through the workshop?
KAY: [02:39:22:03] it was something really different, when I arrived today I was a bit
apprehensive - I wasn't sure, but it was amazing, it was … I felt it was very, very powerful
and very emotional and it was good to be able to do that and see the other people's
reactions and… I thought it was amazing *02:39:42:23+
Q. And did you learn something from it?
KAY: [02:39:45:17] Aye I learnt that there’s different ways of dealing with your emotions
and with oppression and depression and you know I thought it was a very, very
worthwhile afternoon. [02:39:57:16]
Q. Maybe you could start just telling me where you were born, grew up, your family?
KAY: [02:40:11:24] I was born not far from Charlie, I was actually born on the Lecky road
which is, as you know, just down the street and um…. then my Daddy was among the
very first to squat in the Springtown camp which was originally I think it was an army
camp, to get housing, a lot of people had done it at the time, and then we subsequently
got allocated this 3 bed-roomed mansion in Creggan Heights [02:40:38:16] which we
thought was just absolutely amazing as there was 17 of us, 15 children and my Mammy
and Daddy, this 3 bedroom mansion was just a wee bit on the small side so we
�eventually moved then to Central Drive to a maisonette because it had 4 bedrooms and
ah…. not one of my favourite moves now I have to say because I loved living in Creggan
Heights - the people in Central Drive were wonderful but I just didn't like the building
(laugh) and as it was at the heart of the Troubles, we were very, very close to everything
that was going on [02:41:17:10] But it was funny at times because we'd be sitting in the
sitting room playing cards and the shooting would have started and we had to get down
onto our hands and knees and carry our cards through to the back to the kitchen, and
went on continuing playing cards - it had become part of the way of life, also where we
lived there was an empty shop below us and as far as I'm led to believe it was used as an
arms store [02:41:42:20] so we were kind of sitting on a time bomb plus the shop that
we lived above sold paraffin oil or something at the time, so there we were and there
wasn't even a back entrance to them…it was a maisonette, you come in the front door,
up a flight of star is to the bathroom, kitchen and living room, and up a second flight of
stairs to the bedrooms, and there wasn't even a fire escape to the back of them
[02:42:09:14] so as I say, not my favourite place to live, and I cried the first day I stepped
into it and I wonder did I cry bad luck on it, because from there, it was there that my
mommy died in 1968, and then poor Jackie got murdered in 1972 and I thought I cried
bad luck on the old stupid house (laugh) but being… we were brought up a normal
catholic god fearing family, we weren't politically aware, I personally never was, some of
the boys when they went down, and I don't doubt that they would have taken part in a
bit of rioting or whatever…. *02:42:58:18+ On the day of Bloody Sunday, me Daddy
worked in a Hospital in the Waterside called St.Colm's hospital, and it was in a street
called Browning Drive, which was beside….. Isn’t that where Ebrington Barracks is now I
think? So that barracks was there and he passed that on a daily basis going to his work
and I often wondered did he - did someone say anything to him cos he come home on
the Saturday and he allowed that nobody was to go to the march on the Sunday but the
boys disobeyed him, [02:43:27:02] as they do… and…..but that was OK the girls - they
made up the dishes after the dinner and that - but the attitude of the boys left the
house that day was they were going for a bit of craic - it was going to be a good day's
craic, it was a nice, dry, cold day - Jackie particularly was looking fixing his shirt and
saying ‘do you think my girlfriend Bernadette Devlin will think I look ok’? And that was
the way he left the house that day [02:43:57:14] and it was all done, in the best, as the
man says, in the best possible taste, but as the afternoon wore on then and people were
returning from the march, we weren’t particularly aware of anything going on until an
Aunt came to the door, she comes…me Daddy was on night shift from his work, from
the hospital and he was still in bed and she's says Kay we've reason to believe that
Jackie was hurt in the town and we went to, we went down the stairs - we didn't have a
phone at home, the shop downstairs was packed to the street, you wouldn't get in there
to use their phone, so she knew that the community centre was being built at the time
just over the street from us and she knew the watchman and she asked him could we
use the phone and we phoned Altnagelvin and I asked the question, 'was Jackie Duddy
admitted to hospital that afternoon?' and whoever it was - I assume it was a nurse, and
she says who’s making the enquiry? And I said it was his sister Kay - a slight short time
elapsed and she come back and she asked again who was making the enquiry and I said
�it was his sister Kay and she said Jackie Duddy was dead when admitted to hospital
*02:45:16:03+ so… I mean…. I vaguely remember throwing the phone in the air and
screaming and after that then…its a kind of…. everything's blank for near enough 3
days…. um…. I think I vaguely remember going, having to go home and meant having to
go and tell me Daddy what had happened and ….um….. my Daddy's initial reaction was I
warned him and told him …told him not to go … as I say this would have been told
afterwards but at the time I don't remember, I don’t remember - apparently I was at the
morgue, apparently. Obviously I was at home when Jackie's remains was home and I
don't recall that - I don't recall the funerals - I thought I'd seen myself in a photograph
that they had re-run in the papers and the same man that came with the news
[02:46:08:23] said that I had fainted outside the chapel steps and had to be taken home
…so them 3 days is totally…totally lost y'know but Jackie was a happy go lucky young
fellow and it was the strangest thing - he was a boxer but he had a great…he had a great
sense of humour - always used to say that he never really was cut out to be a boxer cos
he wasn't aggressive enough if you know what I mean. [02:46:34:20] He loved spaghetti
westerns, would have been one of his… and he had a few girlfriends…. he was that
innocent and that honest of a young fella - the younger brother Patrick - there was
Jackie, Patrick and Gerry was the 3 boys nearest in age and we always called them the 3
musketeers and Patrick had, after Jackie died, he showed me, he actually gave it to me it was a brown envelope that Jackie had wrote a note to Patrick saying I borrowed 3 bob
from your pocket this morning - I'll give it back to you at the weekend when I get paid
[02:47:18:18] so I mean our Patrick probably wouldn’t even have even missed the 3 bob
as the man says but that would give you an idea of his nature - poor Patrick, god rest
him, died 5 years ago from lung cancer but he died suffering survival guilt and he could
never could talk about …..what had happened to Jackie because Gerry, Jackie and
Patrick had met up at one stage - Gerry had ran on, he says ‘I'm getting out of the road
cos our Billy if he catches me he'll kill me’ - that was the older brother and Patrick was
going with a girl that lived in the Brandywell so he left Jackie to go and he says now you
get home cos this…..this is getting … a bit out of hand here today, and he went on to see
his girlfriend, so he felt that he had abandoned Jackie and left him and…. *02:48:10:08+
and he could never talk about it, never could deal with it afterwards and I think it helped
that his health deteriorated….. so…. for years we weren't allowed to talk about it - it was
unspoken, wasn't spoken about and I think it was my Daddy's way of protecting the
boys from going to join the IRA or whatever or go out looking for vengeance cos that's….
and me Daddy in his naiveté always said these soldiers will get older and their
conscience will start to get the better of them and they will need to tell the truth (laugh)
*02:48:46:16+ but over the years my Daddy died in 1968 or 1985 sorry ….yeah he was
only 68 years old and ah… although for years the march and all was going on, we in our
naiveté thought that somebody would eventually do something about Bloody Sunday get the truth of what happened, but then the campaign was set up and Gerry and
myself took an active part in the campaign representing the family and we were very
blessed that the family relied on Gerry and myself to make decisions for them on their
behalf and if it was OK with us then it was all right with them [02:49:26:24] whereas I
know for a fact that a lot of families have split up over the years among themselves
�because there was different opinions and whatever …. ah….. I've done stuff over the
years that I never thought it would have been possible to do, one being for instance - we
were invited to New York and….. For the St. Patrick’s day parade - I was a bit
disappointed to be honest because John Kelly, Mickey McKinney and myself had to
leave it just as it was starting and go to Washington and I stood in a room full of
Senators and cried me way through a talk - and at that stage I did… I said I'm sorry
for…for being upset but this is the way it is y'know *02:50:14:13+ then when I thought on
it afterwards I thought I can't believe I just done that y'know but it.. somehow it gives
you… you seem to get an inner strength from somewhere and over the years it was a
long hard slog and without support from people like Charlie and the people of Derry,
England, Dublin eventually the politicians come on board and whatever, but it was all
near enough family led with a lot of support and I have to say now the Saville enquiry
…the Widgery farce as it is now known as has been confined to the bin as you know - we
had no actual part in that but the Saville enquiry was a whole different ball game
[02:50:59:13] the opening statement of the Saville enquiry took 74 days and that was
longer than what the ..travesty of the first one was .. to take place …. but over the years
we grew as a family … people were like an extended family and we got to know other
families better than we probably would have done, we gathered support from
ourselves, Cúnamh throughout was a major help to us I have to say - I don't think I
would have survived without the help of Cúnamh being there and they were with us
both in Derry and in London [02:51:37:18] and they were there to pick up the pieces
each day and that’s why then after … standing on the steps of the Guildhall that day, the
only one… there was only one thing that Saville let me down on and that was that I feel
that he… he hung Ger Donaghy out to dry - he didn’t go that extra mile and say that Ger
… he said he was unlawfully killed and unjustifiably killed but he still says he may have
had the nail bombs in his pocket and Gerard's sister - adopted sister was suffering from
cancer at the time and it finished her off *02:52:20:00+ it just….. she went to her grave a
distraught person and for me personally that was the one thing that Saville let me down
on but I think he did as best he could with what he was allowed to….. That day standing
on the Guildhall steps as I say - for me it was like watching a black cloud lifting up from
over the people of Derry, and I felt everybody in this town that had been put through…
they didn't give evidence - they relived the day of what they experienced cos you could
actually… I noticed they were - I was thinking about it today when we were doing ….
when were doing that this afternoon - you could actually see them ducking down as
they were talking - they were back there reliving it *02:53:06:21+ and ah….. for them…..
And for the courage that they showed and the support that they gave us it was amazing
to see that black veil being lifted and everybody was exonerated y'know and everybody
in the town - it was such a joyous feeling that day, that it took me days - it was a few
days after, I was at home by myself and as…I don't know about yourself but most
women will flick from channel to channel and it came on - something that I don't
normally watch is anything to do with politics, and it came on - Cameron's speech and I
sat alone in my own home and watched it for the first time [02:53:45:19] and I cried like
a baby, but it was like crying with joy, and I thought right - what happens now? My
initial reaction that day was - I don't have anything to do tomorrow - I've actually a free
�day tomorrow - nothing that I need to get up and do and then…. I don't know what time
it was had elapsed and the next thing then the PSNI has announced a murder enquiry
and I thought sweet mother of Jesus what now? What do we do? Where do we go from
here? So as I say, the first meeting that I was at to do with this 'Murder' enquiry and as I
say my body went to pieces I just shook… I was shaking, uncontrollable shaking, and
emotional, and Jill Gillespie is looking across at me and saying 'are ye ok? And I'm going
'no, I'm not ok' cos I have the statement from the time stating that Jackie was murdered
and then she's basically telling me on the day that’s not worth the paper it was printed
on [02:54:51:12] so please God that this enquiry - this murder enquiry will not take as
long as the Saville enquiry did, and that we will eventually, eventually - as I says we have
buried Jackie but we have never laid him to rest 02:55:09:03] and for us I think that's
very very important. So if you know any good novena's, please say them!…. that this will
not take much longer because I feel physically and mentally exhausted - I'm just running
out of steam (laugh) *02:55:26:02+ and thank you very much for the time….
Q; Do you think it’s important for people to have the opportunity to talk about their
stories and their experiences?
KAY: [02:55:33:20] Oh very much so - you know the saying – it’s good to talk - and a
story shared is just amazing I think and people need to get a chance to tell their story,
this is..I would be guilty of… it …started inadvertently this way - I always say I speak first
and then everybody else has to talk after ye, but I don't want to be seen to be hogging
….. the limelight - the Bloody Sunday families….. wounded and their initial family don't
have any monopoly on suffering - everybody has suffered and everybody's entitled to
tell their story and its so, so important - and it was a privilege for me today to share in
this story. [02:56:15:02] It’s the first time that Charlie and I have been in that sort of a
scenario that we actually listened to one another - that’s something I have learnt over
the years, is to listen (laugh) and I think that’s important too *02:56:28:16]
Q: Thank you very much.
END IV
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Kay Green
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Kay Green
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
5
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Kay Green Thompson (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
23 November 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3459
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/b88b25e4df805d696b22d7234ce96373.pdf
4c3cce069f7f05a27f4ee678e9f3bd01
PDF Text
Text
21 September 2013
Interview with:
Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk, Community Drama Practitioners,
Venue: The Hub, Cookstown, County Tryone
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File no: 010159
TC Start: 02:50:20:16
Q: So Carol and Tony how are you?
CAROL: We're grand.
Q: You did this workshop today? Carol how was that?
CAROL: (laugh) Exhausting! I don't think I was ever in a workshop like it in my life ever
that...that moved everybody y’know till, I suppose opening up, [02:50:50:07] I was
gonna say tears but it was all opening up, it was unbelievable and I, I knew everybody in
the group which was even more strange because things was happening that I thought
oh my God but I knew it was good for whatever reason they were crying and, it was
unbelievable. I'm exhausted actually [02:50:59:09], knackered!
Q: Good! (all laugh) you'll enjoy your sleep tonight?
CAROL: Aye not need a'rockin! [20:51:06:22]
Q: So you are a Catholic and a Protestant and you are married?
CAROL: No (points) Catholic and (points to herself) and Protestant, you went round the
wrong road there ha! [02:51:17:18]
�Q: And did you ever think when you were growing up that you would marry a catholic?
CAROL: [02:51:23:07] Not a mission….there wasn't a chance in hell that I'd be marrying
a Catholic, not growing up in the family that I grew up in, not that..we weren't a very
bitter family but we were Church of Ireland - staunch Church of Ireland, my father's an
Orangeman [02:51:37:11] and Black Chaptery so Catholic didn't come into it. He never
told us not to marry a Catholic, or he never told us to keep away from them but it was
about. It was just there was an aura everywhere. Like, we lived in a, in a small town,
94% Catholic so we were the 6% Protestants, my Mum and Dad still live in that wee
town.[02:52:03:07] But it was just about, and I mean I knew at a tiny tiny age that we
were different than the most of the people in our town. I remember an old Barber one
time, and Mommy had a blind Uncle and I used to walk him up - he used to put his hand
on my shoulder [02:52:19:17] up to the Blind Barber's , and we had moved house and
the old man knew this and he said 'oh this is miss Dewey and you've moved down
house’ and I said 'yeah we've moved down' and he says 'you'll play with Brendan
Quinn's children? I was only a tot at the time and I says 'we're not allowed to play with
Catholics' *02:52:36:05+ ….my mother nearly kilt me that night and my Uncle beat me
the whole way down the road. That didn't come from my parents, so somewhere along
the line I had picked this up that y’know there was Catholics across the road and we
weren't allowed to pick them, or play with them. [02:52:49:13]. So.
Q: And Tony, your experience then, I mean would you have felt the same growing up in
reverse if you like? That you would never have seen yourself marrying a Protestant?
TONY: [02:53:02:02]Not exactly, I wouldn't have been, my mind wasn't closed to
marrying any particular faith or whatever but we knew that we weren't exactly popular
with some of the Protestant people, that our type was different, and we move in
different circles and……it was only probably later in life that I got to meet more and
more Protestant people, cos the tension had gone out, slowly got of the thing…as you
got older as well. [02:53:27:08] I worked in a 95% Protestant factory at one stage and I
just enjoyed the…as if you moved to a new country where there’s all these new people
(laughter in B/G) they were same colour but they were different people. And it was like
you get bored of your own type and you got this new people and you saw the Queen's
picture in the…in the workshop wall *02:53:48:20+ and you said ah curious - might as
well have been a Muslim or a Jewish y’know God or demigod on the wall but it…there
was wee pockets of that there in the factory because it was 95% of the one (Carol off
camera) must get one and hang it up in our house! (Tony) and eh…I never felt any
y’know antipathy towards the thing, I just was, sympathy and sometimes y’know
incredulous like my God ! [02:54:16:04] y’know not at what they believed or what they
did… but I just thought sometimes a bit petty or….sometimes it was a bit over the top
sometimes y'know (Carol off camera) us? (pull back to 2S and laughter) I just realized he
was talking about us (Tony) I realize now that was probably an expression of their, the
feeling of probably… isolation in a way or…like the barriers up towards the rest of the
�world who might have thought y'know, it was like….someone on their back that they
had to protest at all times to keep their, their place where it was y'know [02:54:47:01]
Q: So this must have come from your upbringing, your family?
TONY: [02:54:50:11] Yeah you didn’t, as Carol said, you didn't…you heard it bit by bit ,
slowly incrementally you got the feeling that…you knew you moved in different circles
[02:55:00:10] you didn't go to the same church, you didn't go to the same school, and
you didn't play the same sports…as you get to work and go out among the working
population, you began to sort of…melt into the wider population instead of just being in
your own circles y'know. [02:55:18:15]
Q: So is it fair to say that the divisions are more obvious when you are growing up, when
you are younger and yet when you get older there's a bit more migration or cross
migration if you like? Carol?
CAROL: [02:55:29:22]Yeah ….um….probably, I just, I mean we married late in life, over
40 and that was the instigation of my first play, I wrote about people over 40 meeting,
of different religions and still afraid to tell their parents, cos that was the truth
[02:55:48:21] y'know I said oh Jesus how am I going to say catholic, he's a catholic or
…y’know so that was still….but when you said there, I can’t… (to Tony) you said about
us? what did you say about 'us' um….that we were just shouting or something to keep
ourselves whatever…I remember it’s true cos there was a, a strike years ago like a UDA
strike I think they called it and….we turned off Ballylumford.[02:56:10:19] I didn't know
that Protestants turned it off, I just knew that electric went out, but I felt very powerful
because ….(winks) *02:56:17:06+
Q: You'll have to explain that to me what does that mean?
TONY: Power station. CAROL: Ballylumford is a big power station [02:56:19:04] that all
the electric in Northern Ireland sorry but…I remember when y’know the …whispers you
hear - Ballylumford's been turned off and there was a sense of excitement and I
remember coming down over the back fields and Mommy had a wee stove going with
mushrooms in it and I thought Jesus we turned that off y'know…so we did ..we were
non politically minded in our house, and we were brought up that way, but there was a
sense that - it was us that turned it off not them (laugh) y'know it will be us that turns it
on again, y'know and it’s ridiculous now [02:56:46:17] cos there's no, not a sectarian
bone in my body, but then…y'know I turned the lights off …more power to you!!
[02:56:54:11]
Q: What was the town you grew up in?
CAROL: [02:56:55:14] Stewartstown.
�Q: OK, one of the things that strikes me as well, is that you are constantly reminded of
those divisions if you like because of all the iconography, you know the flags and all that
sort of stuff I notice you throw your eyes to heaven there I mean - is that an irritation at
this stage?
TONY: [02:57:16:07] Yes big irritation, I just ignore to some degree but sometimes I just
come face to face with it or you know have a fresh look at it and you say,…y'know when
you see something every day and you pass no remarks, but then some day you're
contemplating – maybe in a different place and a different time, different type of
situation and you see these things and you say….they’re still here like…why? Is it to
reinforce something that we already know? We don't have to be reminded - we know all
these things it’s not…*02:57:44:06+ …it’s perpetuating something that doesn't need
perpetuating to me but (shrugs) .
CAROL: [02:57:48:22] When Tony moved in to our house I lived in a predominantly
Protestant estate…..would it be 100%? Except you? (Tony) 99%(Carol) 99.9 when Tony
moved in [02:57:59:13] but….I suppose the first year he moved in ..it was like….a sort of
a, y'know coming up to June you thought July is nearly here y'know what’ll he think of
the flags flapping but they went up regardless y’know, and me and my daughter Patsy
we used to feel sorry for him, we'd think oh God I wonder does he… and then we'd ask
him and he says they don't annoy me, but we felt bad that he had to drive and every
house, except ours, had a, had a flag up y'know[02:58:25:08+ but I don't know…
Q: So just looking at the bigger picture if you like, this is part of what’s called the
Memory Project and so part of it is, if you like, telling the stories of the memorable
things that happened and some of them were obviously atrocious, did any of those
atrocities affect your lives directly or indirectly?
CAROL: [02:58:46:16] My sister got married on….I can't even remember the month, but
I remember I was icing her wedding cake, so I was getting a life over at 8 o'clock
one..say Monday morning, by a fella who worked in Dungannon and he picked me up at
8 O'Clock and he was driving a Volkswagen car and we were heading down towards
Cookstown Police barracks and this noise, to me it was like somebody was tapping on
the roof of the car, or the bonnet of the car - sounded like a tin noise like pat, pat, pat,
pat, pat – and he says turn down the radio, it must be something on the car , and he
turned the radio down but as we were still driving, or he was still driving and I was in the
front seat [02:59:27:10] there was a maroon HiAce van outside the barracks with the
door opened and I could clearly see a gunman sitting on his side shooting and he shot a
policeman… [02:59:42:02] and by the time we realized anything had happened he pulled
up the, he pulled on the handbrake of the car and I jumped out and I lay on my stomach,
and he jumped out, but he had to get back in again cos he forgot to put the handbrake
of the car on - it was flying on down! - so he got back in again but I remember screaming
really, really loudly because …. I knew then it was gunshots, I knew there was shooting
�going on cos I heard someone shouting 'get an ambulance he's dead' [03:00:08:03] but
the gunshots got louder which scared the living …I just thought my God they are coming
up this way how am I going to get out of here but seemingly we learned later on that it
was the police shot back and they had no silencers on or..I have no ..never wanted to
enquire about it but…the first shooting sounded like tap, tap, tap, tap and the next
shooting got louder so I was scared *03:00:28:00+ and….everybody was that shocked on
that part of the street that we were allowed to get back into our car and drive straight
past….the dead man…lying in the barracks…. we never spoke, this fella, very good friend
of mine, and he just stopped in Stewartstown in the square, he didn't even take me
down home…I could hardly walk down the hill because I wanted to be so sick cos I
remember …I seen y’know like 4 or 5 red dots in this man's ,cos it was a pale green shirt
they used to wear, surprised that I remember that – but it was pale green , and I
remember *03:01:05:24+ …going down the hill and opening the door and I says’ Daddy'
before I spoke Daddy said there's been a Policeman injured in Cookstown and I said
'Daddy he's dead' - no he's not the news said he's injured - I said Daddy I swear he's
dead - I saw him - they thought I was not wise [03:01:19:15] but I came in and I said I
promise I drove past that - and I remember shaking - the wedding cake never was iced
that day cos my hands couldn't steady til get it done. But that’s the only thing I believe
that I ever saw. But it was just…do you know this…I know it annoyed me but it was so
…unbelievable that I never thought about it again until somebody like you would say to
me can you remember anything and I'll tell you the story [03:01:47:02] but apart from
that it goes way out of my head cos its…
Q: That’s probably the way you dealt with it?
CAROL: *03:01:51:22+ I just…never and I never…..I'm a great story teller, I mean I'm a
marvelous story teller, I exaggerate and put…but that was one thing I never ,ever,
touched on. Couldn’t …not that I thought oh don't go there, I just forgot about it , just
….in my head *03:02:07:00+
Q: And Tony?
TONY: 03:02:11:16] Thankfully nothing directly affected me, or my family,…some of my
relatives were in very…..similar circumstances to Carol but really it never impinged on
my life but …I think it was almost surreal in, in some respects - some of the things you
heard about or some things you may have seen or you might have heard a bomb in the
distance or heard of something or something local - the postman was shot 2 miles away
and you are sort of shocked inside but *03:02:43:07+ …nothing you could do only take a
deep breath and hope there was no repercussions and ..try and carry on as normal so…it
was almost like another….another world existed outside your own, you sort of kept to
your own protected world and hoped the other would go away eventually and, or that
wouldn't impinge on your own life y'know [03:03:03:15]…but we didn't have any real
… contact with…or major contact with the Troubles …thank goodness. only I remember
me father saying to us when we were teenagers … if any of you boys - we were mostly
�boys - get involved with anything you'll not be coming, you’ll not be coming through the
back door - it'll be locked and you'll be staying out and that’s it …so we were warned to
keep well clear of any organizations or but I don’t think we were ever inclined to anyway
so….we never had any real…unless you really went looking for it ..you might not have
got involved y’know, I mean…or it came to you maybe - it come to some people
[03:03:40:14] by accident but it never came to our house thank goodness.03:03:44:10]
Q: You must look back now on that with a certain amount of relief? And respect for your
father in a way?
TONY: [03:03:52:11] Yeah ..I don't know why he said that but I think it was….I don't
know why….maybe he had….maybe he was just afraid …maybe that was it maybe…
maybe it happened to some other family he knew or something like that there - he was
just afraid so he …just in case he warned us y'know…I don't think he believed we really
would be as easy led into something like that but you never know now like - it can come
to you by …by default if it visits on your brother and then y'know and you feel bad about
it then you take revenge and that’s the way it happened in some families, and then the
whole family became involved in one way or another or at least sympathize but thank
God it never touched us at all….*03:04:30:04+so….I'm glad in a way yes he did but….
Q: And then I suppose this backdrop, this wider backdrop…you said already that the last
thing on your mind, ever, was to have married someone from….you mentioned …us and
them…from them if you like but that did happen so how did that come about? How did
you meet?
CAROL: [03:04:54:23+ Drama …yeah…drama group …. I was divorced and I had, I had a
child …and he was attached to his mother's apron strings (laugh off cam) (Tony) that's
debatable actually but..(laugh) for another time..(Carol) no it was through drama, we
met through drama absolutely …..(Tony) rehearsals and learning lines and (Carol) he
was in the same piece as me and he used to say I'll come up to your house and learn my
lines cos its quieter (Carol looks over to Tony) if I knowed now what I knew then…(laugh)
*03:05:29:00+ only joking…aye it was through drama..but we, we sorta ,… we did keep it
quiet (Tony) we were a bit cagey for a while (Carol) I mean we were over 40 for
goodness sake you know so I'm sure …we're married 10 years so that’s only 10 years ago
so I'm sure today there's still some people who think Oh can't say that what am I going
say y'know….don't know how we broke it to them… we didn't break it really cos I used
to say this is Tony from drama, Mommy, Tony from drama…we're going to drama and going to a drama weekend….that was going on for years y'know - drama weekend yeah
ha..drama weekend - whose that? Tony from the drama weekend (laugh) just lied our
way through it [03:06:08:13] what did you tell them I was? (Tony) …in the drama
group… (Carol) did you? ah see that ? I knew (laugh) (Tony) common denominator - I
think that’s what people do need is common denominators in their lives to, to break
barriers [03:06:24:24]
�Q: That’s exactly it, that’s the point isn't it? Here's a drama group that allows people
from all denominations to get together and it doesn't really matter does it?
TONY: [03:06:36:24] I don't think it mattered to us as much as to what we thought that
other people would think about it and as a one to one if we were the only 2 people on
the island it wouldn't have mattered to us but because of the pressures around it
mattered a bit that we weren't from the same background.[03:06:50:22](Carol) it was
only my parents, like I didn't give a hoot what anybody else …none of my family ..I
didn’t, it didn't bother me, it was just my parents, and do you remember the night we
decided to tell them? (laugh) I swear to god, we got engaged - we didn't tell anybody
you see, so we come home with this ring and we're oh fuck what are we going to do?
Are you going to say or am I going to say?*03:07:05:09+ so he says…Tony's very sensible,
he's not like me, so right we'll pick a night and we're going to tell them so we…we were
up on our computer and I'm going out now to tell my father and then I'll tell my mother
and you..and I said I don't think I'll go I'll just phone them and he says well as long as you
tell them. So the minute he went I phoned me sister, would you do me a big favor?
(laugh) I wouldn't even tell them, I got her to tell my parents and I felt really sneaky
because I knew he was gone out with his guts churning to tell them ones you know and I
thought my god he's to face all that there and I didn't do anything at all, so I was really
sneaky and I thought I can't face that negativity if it’s going to happen, y’know or
whatever [03:07:44:11] but
Q: So what was the reaction then?
TONY: [03:07:46:15] Mine was the y’know the Father and son - you know the
conversations, not face to face but y’know huhuh and….washing the dishes and this
person like (looking thoughtful) right well the day and…and all this …and what time is it
and…just before I go I want to say …tell you this here when you're not looking at me so
don't have to face to face..no eyeball please, this here (laughter) you know that sort of
uncomfortable sort of …then there was silence ….and…then ah don't know what…what
your mother would think about that …(laugh) (Carol) and us 40! (Tony) so he was more
or less transporting that …moving on to somebody else's responsibility to give an
opinion on it - he wasn't too sure himself but…he was really thinking about what other
people would think as well really I think but [03:08:35:02] that was the last mention of it
as a problem or even a topic of discussion really.
Q: And for you? What was your mother's thoughts?
CAROL: [03:08:41:11] You see I think….my mother would have…my mother has a
wonderful imagination, everything to mum, if she'd had heard a rumor before she was
told, it would be oh there’ll be killing there’ll be a murder…mommy…there was no
middle ground or no…there could be peace ..it would have been just absolutely….but it
was my father that I was afraid of cos I thought my god I've lost his respect now and …I
was devastated and I thought …cos I could handle mommy better but if Daddy had of
�said anything negative I don't know….I think I still would have married ye (to Tony) but
(Tony) that’s very good (Carol) but I think, I think, I think…I don't know, it would hurt me
more if Daddy had of said oh that can't be happening but ….I got a better reception
…y'know I thought they would say oh she's a lovely girl so we were all mixed up there so
I …my Dad said *03:09:32:10+…because…but I …done a lot of things in the house
and…and….I just, I’m a, I'm a people person so my father had thought God, there’s, I'm
doing things with people, she’s very…but Daddy would never say she was good but I
knew he enjoyed what I was doing so…probably this was what softened the blow, the
things that I was doing in the community , he said …well she's old enough now to know
her own mind and as long as he looks after the child and he’s good to her that's it…and
when they phoned me I thought oh thanks be to god I don't have to…hah…y'know
..didn't fear meeting them the next time round y'know… mommy probably took a dose
of shaking and y’know threw a couple of valium into her and all that craic there but…she
probably did y'know..and whatever..but… [03:10:16:12]
Q. But no mention of the fact that he’s a ‘bloody Catholic’?
CAROL: [03:10:19:22] No, never said ….and we had to, we had to actually…wind our
wedding around that too didn't we?(Tony) yeah..you have to be sort of diplomatic and
sort of sensitive to the peoples y'know. (Carol) we've a vicar in our church who, who
knew we were getting married and he must have made 45 phone calls to me, he says
'Carol I'll open any church or any chapel, in Ireland, I've the keys, I'm able to get the keys
of any church..to make it that there's a priest and a church of Ireland minister
there…and I said no…I don't want that, Tony says to me I don't want a priest, y'know at
our wedding and I said would you mind if there's a church of Ireland ..I don't care he
says church of Ireland ok but I'm not a practicing catholic so I don't want a priest
*03:11:05:05+ so I …this man …but I think it was….y'know that transition period between
the blowing up and then everybody wants to be huggy kissey and trees and roots and all
that craic there, so he wanted us to have this …but it was like a feather in their cap…if
we… marry these two and there's a priest and a minister we'll tell the pope look what
we've done…y'know and that made me really cross I think *03:11:27:04+
Q : It’s more about them than about you?
Carol: And I thought (Tony) hmmmm (Carol) remember the night we were drying dishes
and it was him again - let me talk to him…and I couldn't ..y'know…he actually said to me
'is it about your mother and father? Cos if it is I'll speak to them'…I was infuriated that
they really wanted us to have a mixed wedding when we didn't ….*03:11:47:04+ and I…if
Tony had of said to me that I want the priest to marry us, the priest would have married
us - that wouldn't have bothered me , not in the slightest ….but…it would have been in a
cave …nobody would have knew about it but….(laugh)…(looks to Tony) no I would
have… but we slipped away one morning at 7 o'clock, nobody knew, we didn't tell
anybody…went down the road…went to what do you call it? The city hall, lifted up our
Banns, is it the marriage banns you call them? …we drove across …we couldn't find the
�church cos there was that much barbed wire in it …the peace wall, beside the peace
wall…*03:12:20:15+ and …what do you call the road? field…something field…. we hadn't
even witnesses and the minister was there Paul Toomey and Paul said have you no
witnesses? And we said no, did we need any? So we nipped into the school next door
and got 2 people out, they were shaking - we just couldn't wait, we thought this is
brilliant look 15 mins here and back down the road and we're married - no big fuss …we
done that..and then we had our reception in Lusty Beg Island …we borrowed
videos,….photographers, priests, ministers,…..and fancy clothes because we thought
we'd strip them down to neutrality and they'll be absolutely…*03:13:02:12+ …we
organized the wedding. Then…y’know we sent them an invitation and we said 'you're
going across in a boat, if there are any problems throw them into the water or don't
come across y'know?…em..(Tony) we were setting the place mats and the place …the
place on the table on the morning of the wedding..we …were control freaks, not in a
bad way - we enjoyed that - we didn't want it to be..we wanted it to be comfortable for
everybody, so we actually organized the wedding like hands on like wedding planners
ourselves [03:13:28:11] and we were there a day before if not 2 days before on the
island and then people came to us - in a way it being on an island meant that everybody
came and were brought into neutral space in a way y’know cos nobody…they were all
out of their local environment anyway so that was good in a way…I think that was part
of the idea too?[03:13:43:17]
Q: And had the future in-laws met each other?
CAROL: [03:13:45:08] No. (Tony) no (Carol) and they still didn't speak on that
night..they were still in two…it wasn't that they didn't speak - they were there and they
were there and the dance floor was between them so …*03:13:57:07+
Q: So go on…what went on..?
CAROL: [03:13:59:18] Well we just, we just ignored them didn't we? (Tony) it was just
like a (Carol) I don't even think I went to their tables, I just thought ….I was only
then…Tony and I …whenever the starters came out we ate at a table then for the main
course we moved to another table - there was 280 guests or something, there wasn't
one aunt or one uncle [03:14:17:01]
Q: Just friends?
CAROL: [03:14:18:11] Totally friends - two immediate families and the rest were all
friends…so ….no we didn't …and we thought …and everybody said that our wedding was
one of the most casual, pleasant, unbelievably brilliant days ever - we done everything
like home…you know like soup and sandwiches for lunch at our wedding and their meal
wasn't until 6 o'clock …we had ….a 28 piece orchestra playing all day, craic , we'd a
…what do you call it..a bagpiper - he piped them onto the island…he got drunk and he
hadn't the air to fill the bag at the end of the night I swear to god in heaven weeee - he
�was there too long the poor critter and it was the first lie I told me husband, he cost
£150, I told him £75 he said oh get him he'll be lovely but it was £150 and only he played
about 20 mins and my brother got him drunk and he hadn't the air to put into the
bagpipes but anyway…*03:15:07:11+ we just…our day was just full of music and dance
and fun and at 11 o'clock at night it was a firework display - 12 min one …so we'd a
brilliant day - no they never connected - there was no connection [03:15:23:13]
Q: And has there has been since though?
CAROL: [03:15:26:19] ….well when Tony's Dad is in hospital, in a residential care home
at the minute and ah when he was in hospital my mom and Dad went to see him
…uhuh….*03:15:38:12+
Q: And that was the first time that they had met was it?
TONY: [03:15:41:05 I'm not sure….
Q: I'm just …what I'm getting at is what sort of relationship did they have?
CAROL: [03:15:48:19] None. (Tony) None really not since - they know of each other and
know each other.
Q: And brothers and sisters?
CAROL: [03:15:53:09] Our brothers and sisters? {Yeah} (Tony) Ah well they've all met
each other occasionally but y’know…
Q: So it’s a generational thing then?
CAROL: [03:16:00:15] Yeah. (Tony) It is aye - they are safe in their own space and so….
Q: So everyone's kind of comfortable dancing around that a little bit?
Yeah aye yeah.
END FILE
File 010160
Start TC: 03:16:14:10
Q: I want to ask you a question, you got married at 40 but had you been 20 years of age
do you think it would have been much harder for you? I suspect it would have…
CAROL: [03:16:18:21] We would had to go England or something wouldn't we? (Tony).
If we were 20 now it wouldn't have been as hard I don't think.
Q: Would it?
�TONY: Now. (Carol) Now? (Tony) To me it wouldn't (Carol) you mean if it was now?
Q: Now yeah…
CAROL: [03:16:26:19] Not a chance …my child's 22 - Patsy's 22 not a mission (Tony) not
a problem
Q: Things have changes radically then?
TONY: [03:16:32:20] Massively. (Carol) Not for everybody no not for everybody. (Tony)
No not for everybody. (Carol) There are still that..y'know ..well in all walks, there is still
an element of …that old fashioness…even young people…my daughters age would be not a mission - not going there y’know so no …but I mean Patsy's had a brilliant growing
up with us because we sent her to an integrated school - that was unheard of in the
protestant community actually - we were nearly one of the first to send - well I was the
first in (May berg) Park ever…to send my child down to the integrated cos I wanted her
to go to go integrated [03:17:05:05] for me that was absolutely amazing that I lived in a
100% protestant place and she'd come home and say to me Mum, would you mind if I
played Camogie? I said not at all just don't bring the bat home (laugh) you know
because we played hockey - y'know protestant schools played hockey so…*03:17:20:19+
and she brought people home that would come… girls that played GAA …y’know and
come to my door - I used to be saying its lovely that she's meeting all these people
y'know cos we, I didn't meet anyone till I went to work - Catholics - I never went, I
wasn’t across the border…I think …..my god I must have been well over 20 and ..we're
going up to the border now..oh my god… I thought I would be shot cos I was a
protestant – that’s the way you thought - once you crossed that border you'd be pulled
into a field or something [03:17:47:09+ I was y'know…I remember one of…my very best
friend Rosie…I taught her the Sash and she taught me the Hail MARY in case it became a
big civil war y'know and you were stopped some night say Hail Mary full of Grace ….you
know I could sing it and she could learn the Sash - I says if ever there was trouble back
out in a car get out all the protestants and we'd all get out together and bluff them
y'know or whatever or get out all the Catholics y'know - we'd do that - so we 'd all wee
plans made for in case we were ever ambushed (laugh) [03:18:16:02].
Q: And what about your eh….upbringing Tony would you have had a plan B?
TONY: [03:18:23:04] I don't know - I always felt that if I was quite amicable with people
that I met and I just hoped that I knew enough people, wide enough range of people
that knew me well and having worked in places in Dungannon and Cookstown, being in
contact with a lot of people, that I didn't really think I had to. (Carol) That they would go
for you? [03:18:45:16] (Tony) Well I would have been afraid of …being in some
circumstances overwhelmingly maybe…one side that I would be in danger but I would
never put myself in those positions where I’d have been…..y'know overtly political - like I
�wouldn't have went to marches or went to any meetings or anything like that - I would
never been there…*03:19:05:01+
Q: When you were younger, when you were growing up, you did say you were aware of
us and them?
Tony: Oh aye...
Q …and so did you have any kind of…for example did you cross the border?
TONY: [03:19:16:20) Oh aye as soon as I could drive 19,…..I was in rock concerts down in
Dublin and Shamrock Park and Slane and everywhere.
Q: And what were your impressions of the south?
TONY: [03:19:29:20] Then?….impressions were…..it was exciting, it was different different signs and different accents and stuff and but I wasn't quite at one with it , I
mean it wasn't …I didn't feel like it was my home …my …y’know like the Ireland…the old
Ireland that people always talked about I didn't feel it was quite me either y'know – that
I was still different but …but I felt safe there and it was exciting and …y'know ….it didn't
seem like home but it seemed like another place - a friendly place - different
culture[03:20:06:12]
Q. And you had impressions that it was a hostile place?
CAROL: [03:20:08:16] Oh…just people down there…oh don't open your mouth and don't
say your name y'know ..in case they'd found out …I'd never…I can tell you now - I know a lot of protestants who have still not been across the border - in my age group and
would NOT go across the border …I know, that’s the truth *03:20:27:03+
Q: So now we're in this…well into the peace process and what are your impressions for
the future? Obviously things have changed you've said for the 20 year old now or even
for the 40 year old now there are less issues …the issues are more immediate? Family
based issues but the society has become much more integrated?
CAROL: [03:20:52:08] Well…,so is that going to…get better you think?- *03:20:55:23+
we've a different …..in Cookstown at the moment , we have 2,000 ethnic minorities so
that’s the difference for us ….20 years ago it was only the Pakistani man coming round
selling clothes that’s the only person - he'd been a big..oh my goodness look, look, look,
- and the children would run away - now we've 2,000 Portuguese/African/Lithuanian
/Czechoslovakian - people who all use the Hub [03:21:27:06] that are in Cookstown
now which is ….now people …..are thinking - she's going with a Portuguese…he's going
with a Lithuanian….y'know so it’s all that kind of a craic so….we've sort of slid back on
�the Catholic/Protestant thing so its now ooohh…y'know…so I'm not sure [03:21:50:03]
(Tony) it’s strange…just depends on what…. y'know …what exactly what community exact community group you come from - you know there's communities within
communities - there's like different shades of color in every community, but there's
more and more in the middle white - y'know I always think of the Green and the orange
and the white in-between – it’s a play I think I read once or something - and there's
more white people in between who are different shades of pale green or pale Orange or
..you know there's more of that…but still on the outside there's maybe 25% of people I'd
imagine *03:22:21:06+ really that hold on to their…
(Carol) I love the 12th of July, the 12th of July …I don't know if you like it or not but I love
the 12th of July and I'm not sectarian in any way - I …because people …some people
think oh the 12th - starts to all the trouble but for me growing up the 12th of July was 5
kids - all new outfits - plastic sandals, 10p each or 2 shillings back then - our hair all
combed - the excitement was like Christmas eve night - it was so exciting and all slid into
the back of a Zephyr car and mommy drove us up to wherever the parade was that day
and we couldn't wait to see Daddy coming past [03:23:02:08] walking and all the bands you get a punnet of strawberries and mommy brought a loaf of bread and butter and
she brought chips from a van and we all got a lot of chips and a sandwich - it was just so
exciting - and even yet to me and I grew up with the 12th of July and I absolutely, I loved
to hear the ..when you hear the bands you just want to …y’know you just love to tap
your feet and it brings me back to those happy memories when I didn't know anything
about bombing or anything about shooting or Catholics or Protestants - it was my day
out and our family day out and Daddy got a bus and we waved him off in this big bus
and we all slid up the road and it was just so exciting - a blanket and an old shook we
were sitting in mommy would have lined out the stuff and millions, we thought, millions
of people walked past us and it was just - we went home that night exhausted but
thrilled that it was our day *03:23:51:09+ but there was no…it was a ….to me it was a
happy family day and then society caused me to stop talking about how I used to love
the 12th - no I …people say to me oh that should be banned - if it was banned it would
break my heart [03:24:09:13] if they banned the 12th
Q: But the Catholic community don't have a similar day out?
TONY: No, no so there's…. we don't have …
Q: It’s wonderful to hear, it’s a great reflection - an innocence almost and there's no
kind of political dimension –
CAROL: [03:24:33:02] Never came into it
Q : - or sectarian dimension to it, it was just a holiday , a great holiday?
CAROL: With red white and blue clothes - honestly - you know everybody, every child
[03:24:41:21] had like a red skirt or shorts, a white and a blue - everything was red white
�and blue - it was just part of …it wasn't ..like y’know putting it on now go and show your
catholic neighbours what you wear - it was nothing to do with that - and bear in mind
that we lived in Stewartstown in the middle of 96% catholic area so you know we still
thought it was ok - that was our day out and – y’know it was ok with them they allowed
us to go - they were happy for us to go that’s in our heads what we thought y'know
[03:25:09:02] so I'd be shocked now when people say the 12th creates trouble so it’s
only elements within communities that create trouble on our 12th.[03:25:18:06]
Q: Is that actually a fair thing to say that it is only elements, a very small minority that
grab the headlines.
CAROL: 03:25:26:01]Without a shadow of a doubt…(Tony) I think the strong…leaders
are - the community influences - the strong people in communities who….don't let go of
the leash on their communities …they don't …you know they've still got this hold over
them..y’know like a dogma and like a….its forbidden…once you cross that line you're not
one of us so you have to keep in and you are encouraged to toe the line …so, I think
that’s…I don't know whether its conscious or unconscious but there seems to be..and
there’s also a very strong organizational part of that – it’s well organized so it doesn't
break down [03:26:03:03] it’s so…it’s so compact and steadfast that it won't just melt
slowly – it’s very carefully orchestrated almost, that it won't ever go away …or even
blend into something more widely acceptable you know what I mean? [03:26:19:11]
Q: Do you think that’s going to change ever? Any time soon?
CAROL: [03:26:22:22] No. (Tony) No, well the institutions are there in a way…y’know
even looking at both sides of the community - if I was a typical nationalist I would only
play Gaelic or hurling, I would only go to chapel mass …I would only….(Carol) vote Sinn
Fein (Tony) vote Sinn Fein etc, etc and if it was only…if I was only…if I was a protestant
or a Unionist tradition I would only do the opposite - I would be in a band or in an
Orange Lodge - so you've two separate paths and once you go on one of those paths
that’s you for life basically *03:26:59:18+ not totally but there is a fair wee division
but…..(Carol) It wouldn't be political why you started voting for someone else it would
be personal (laugh).
TONY: Aye it would be personal aye yeah [03:27:12:07]
Q: And in a way society has bigger things to worry about at the moment in terms of
unemployment and ….(Tony) but I have too
Q: Than traditions…
TONY: [03:27:21:18] And I would look on the working class protestant community as
very underprivileged …and a lot of them have a closed mind…I feel, I feel sympathy
towards them rather than disrespect or, or …I would have thought that, y’know, they
�could've done with….a bit more open mindedness from their community leaders or
something y'know..you don't have to lose…lose your way to see other people's opinions
like [03:27:47:16] (Carol) You ever remember when the EEC funding come in? That was
like…that was like the devils money in protestant terms cos I remember saying to Daddy
'everybody's getting their shop fronts done up Dad.’ And He owned a garage and he
says 'I don't know where to get the money’ I says, let me make a phone call and I
phoned a particular ….(Tony) politician? …(Carol) … I'm not going to say what office it
was that I phoned one of the members but I phoned and I said ' do you know anything
about the EEC money? We don't deal with THAT money, that’s outside money!
*03:28:17:23+ …and put the…and that’s what happened, sadly, an awful lot of
protestants - even Orange halls wasn't done up because they refused the money, and if
they had taken the money back when the EEC money was good, every Orange hall
would be …nice wooden sprung floors in it - they'd be running sociable things out in
rural areas, everything - but they turned the money down and now they're crying clutching for a bit of funding y'know and I am ….a protestant so I was livid at that time
because all the Catholics - well why wouldn't they when the money was coming in? if I
was a catholic I would have put a new roof on me house but…when money was coming
in - the protestants - no - because they were ignorant [03:28:58:03] they didn't know
what EEC meant or what it..y'know …they just hadn't a clue … to them EEC was like IRA
….so, y’know, we're not touching that money - its filthy money!…. give it to the
protestants now and EEC money and…*03:29:15:08+ we'll go the Maldives!
Q: I'll just hold you for one second there…. I just wanted to talk to you about..you
mentioned earlier that when you were growing up there was 93% catholic? And the
protecting of the culture..you said something about you had to protect your culture?
CAROL: [03:29:32:21] Did I say that? (Tony) I might have said that…
Q: I think you did Carol, you were talking about protecting your culture - you were kind
of defending yourself
CAROL: [03:29:40:16] 0h aye the Ballylumford?
Q: Yeah..I just want to…maybe if you talk a little about ….the right to express your
culture now….do you feel that…and the whole flag protest and all that whole …..
situation that is happening in NI what do you think about that Carol?
CAROL: [03:30:01:20] I still believe that you should have a right to express….your beliefs
…look a flag to me is a piece of material - no matter what color it is…I just don't
like…our, our flags hang out …look this is the way I grew up and this is the way I stand,
and, and thanks be to god my father brought me up this way - my father put his union
jack out and Union Jack only - out on the 11th night and he brought it in at 5 to 12 …the
next night and that was…that was, that was the old fashion…that was the respectable,
�good Christian way of celebrating the 12th of July - you put your flag out on the 11th
night and bring it in at midnight on the next night and that was lovely [03:30:49:09] and
we never…in all of that area in Stewartstown ..my father…our family was very well
respected …and we never had any trouble - my father still hung out his Union Jack
because that was his culture and it never was taken down…it never was burnt …and I
mean we had bombs and deaths and shootings in our home town and y’know a lot of
horrific stuff happened but our Union Jack never was taken down…*03:31:14:18+ so I
think people respected that it was put out and taken back in again the next day and i
think that’s lovely and I still love my Dad for putting out his flag that night and bring it…I
just think that’s - look at Dad he's got it back in again and all and that’s lovely - that’s the
way it should be - but now I see flags hanging out to infuriate other people and they
hang out till they become dish cloths y'know to the following year plus the fact not
just…y'know everything's …it’s a whole vicious circle…..*03:31:43:06+ …the collecting of
money for new flags…they would never need money for new flags if they took them in
on the 12th night , washed and ironed them - put them into the bottom drawer, and
brought them out the next year….but up and down Cookstown street we have…and like
I mean ..don't get…we've beautiful….arches and they do some lovely displays on the
12th of July and stuff like that but the flag issue is …..they don't hang them out for the
reason they should hang them out - as a celebration day - they hang them out and say
look what we can do….*03:32:11:19+ …y'know like I did when we turned Ballylumford the lights out - y'know - look at that there - we'll hang them out - you'll not take our
flags down….you know that’s just …. you can be a really good decent protestant …and
hang out your flag…and love Catholics at the same time - there’s nothing wrong with
it…y'know..I never hang out a …I never hung out a flag number one cos I've a awful lot
of catholic friends who visited me and out of respect I thought well if just one of them
was hurt walking under that flag, well I'm not hanging it out….*03:32:43:15+
Q: And do you think that your love for each other has actually …has made you
more…tolerant of the other side?
CAROL: [03:32:50:12] Oh for sure …for sure (Tony) Although Carol you had a quite a lot
of friends, Catholics, before you met me and I think you were ahead of me in the game
in some ways but… I'd be more exposed to more to Carol's culture and her background,
not her personally but her people she knows and meeting people …I learned to respect
that their …their celebrations are a cultural thing and…a celebration and not a..not
antagonizing as it would have been years ago to me maybe….y'know, I would have
thought of coat trailing and that every band was an army without an arsenal – it’s an
army…they are playing the flutes today but tomorrow they could be carrying
guns….*03:33:28:00+ that’s the way the Catholics saw it - these are all armies - every
parish had its own army and then one day, if necessary, they will ditch their flutes and
be…and I'm sure that’s the way it was intended originally but it’s just been a tradition
now – it’s all about music and marching but originally it was like a small…like scout troop
- so military…so…[03:33:47:14](Carol) I never thought you saw our bands as being
�(Tony) when I was younger I did…(Carol) oh…(Tony) well you know…(Carol) that’s a
good 'un (Tony) if you wanted an army what you do is all the Orange lodges and all the
bands and you have an army …within 24hrs you would have an army as long as you had
the guns…
Q: That harps back to ancient times when the band led the soldiers to battle?
TONY: Ancient times…300 yrs ago ……that’s what I saw it as …that’s just me maybe
being a bit….but now I don't see it like that - I just see it (Carol) and tell them why not…
[03:34:11:18] (Tony) Patsy plays in a band in Magherafelt … and my brother visited one
night and she says to me don't let him see me in uniform (laugh) hide - close the door
(Carol) that was her respecting Tony's brother - don't let him see me in a uniform - it
wasn't because I wouldn't..it just was y’know …..just in case it might annoy him that I'm
in a band uniform y'know …..(Tony) or he might think less of her [03:34:33:19]
Q: And should it? Should it annoy him?
CAROL: No it shouldn't (Tony) it shouldn't but…*03:34:37:12+ (Carol) because …because
we're living up here and we know that it just takes that (clicks fingers) to trigger off
somebody’s pain or hurt from the past - y'know if we keep it as neutral as we can and
y'know ….like Patsy…patsy loves the feeling of belonging to …she's an only child - she
loves the family thing of a group and teamwork she never had it in our house cos we
always kilt one another but now she has this big group of family and I say why do you
like it in the band? ..she did say to me - I want to join this band mum do you mind if I
carry the flag? I said I'd prefer if you played the flute but if you want to carry the flag
that’s entirely up to you and I'll give you my blessing *03:35:12:15+ so she says no
…there's something nice about this so, absolutely, I mean Tony leaves her to the bus to
get a lift in - to us it’s just …something she loves doing , she belongs to this team of
people and they're all good to her and y'know….. we don’t see it as a…[03:35:26:08]
Q: And are there many people, obviously there are many who are intolerant , but are
there many people like yourselves who are tolerant or who just keep themselves to
themselves and don't express their distaste, if you like, for the divisions?
TONY: [03:35:41:06] Well there's 40% of people who don't vote for a start so whether
inactive politically or just don't approve of the system or the history being kept going
on…I don't know why that is but a lot of those people are disengaged from….
y'know…being able to do anything about it…or y’know so[03:36:02:19]
Q: So you could argue that either they are indifferent or they're fed up with it or they
have very strong views but they don't want to air them because of the repercussions
…its very complex?
�TONY: [03:36:14:01] Its very complex (Carol) it’s a combination of all three yeah
….absolutely (Tony) I’d say there were a lot of people confused as well…they don't
where to…(Carol) yeah people is afraid - y'know we have the two main parties Sinn Fein
and DUP no…it’s not a secret like y’know….so if you're a protestant and you're afraid
that ….that you've been told …by strong leaders or whatever - if you don't vote for us
they're going to get in and the country’s going to go to rack and ruin so you vote for
them…*03:36:45:18+ no matter….like I mean, growing up in our house - Number one Daddy…I'm sure he …he never said who he voted for but we thought it was DUP so we
all just grouped DUP.. when you come 18 …DUP…DUP …because I didn't know what DUP
stood for, I didn't know who was in the DUP, that I had to put the X for - not a notion in
my head and I had no political interest then and I have far less now [03:37:10:06]
because I don't think ..the politicians are the people that will make this country good in
the future…I think it will be the people themselves….*03:37:21:07+
Q: And to that end do you think there will be a United Ireland and if there was how
would you feel about it?
CAROL: I wouldn't want a united Ireland, definitely wouldn't want a united Ireland
because ….I said that cross did I? Did I say that like with a sorta guns blazing? no? …well
number 1, I was born in Northern Ireland so I'm politically British and culturally Irish so
to amalgamate….it would be horrific for somebody born in the 6 counties that’s our
world and then the next thing no its no more …no you’re all belonging to the one
thing…it would scare me I think [03:37:56:17]
Q: So you still have that fear of the border? (Laughter)
CAROL: No its gone now …no I just ..I don't know I think…I think it’s nice - the 6 of
us…..y'know I think we're all…don't forget we've Donegal whose y'know….that’s…so I'm
not saying we’re all, the 6 counties are all protestant I just like the North of Ireland and I
think years ago if they had of let us…you know Home rule…. back then ..it would have
been much better - I love down South cos when we go down south, once we cross, what
used to be the border, we just love…we just think we're …in the Maldives
….*03:38:30:13+…y'know, and that’s… if we're going for the weekend straight to
Letterkenny, Sligo, Donegal, Dublin…we love it – it’s like our holidays but I still like my 6
counties I feel - what about you? [03:38:42:01] If I can give him word in here …hang
on…. (Tony) No …. I think…(Carol) be careful now!…(laugh) we're married 10 years, we
might not see 11….only joking…(Tony)….no I don't think I want it either - I don't think
very deep in their hearts that most Nationalists believe or really want it …because we
are, been…we've been apart so long we're not the same y'know and I think similar to
what Carol said , we're either British living in Ireland or else Irish living in Britain
whatever the way you want to look at it *03:39:13:05+ or a combination…. in a small way
as far as I like HP sauce watch BBC my favorite channel and I listen to Radio 4 plus local
stations and sometimes RTE 2 but you know what I mean, …generally I wouldn’t watch
�TG4 or anything like that there, but culturally I'd be Irish as far as poetry and plays and
…but only with a small I and mild color of green y'know what I mean but …. but I think
…I think you can push the NI thing too far as well like ……we sort of want to be a
separate entity but I think we're all similar in Britain, Ireland, NI….I think we're too close
to be …to be that much different *03:39:54:13+
Q: And it probably sounds to me that it would matter less as the generations go on.
TONY: I think so (Carol) praise be to god….I hope it comes soon.
Q: But you still want to have your identity? But it doesn't matter what that identity
is….it’s about harmony isn’t it really?
CAROL: [03:40:13:10) Oh for sure ….but I don't mind… I never was afraid of even saying
to Catholics I love the 12th and I'll explain to them why I like the 12th y'know and
….then you allow them to tell you why they hate it y'know….and…I've…my longest
bestest dearest friend Rosie is a Catholic - I stood for her child - and that was a big thing
too - Protestant standing for a Catholic child [03:40:36:06]
Q: What do you mean 'stand for her'?
CAROL: Christening…
Q: Oh yeah as a Godmother?
CAROL: We had a - they had to ask the priest was it ok for me to come along y’know
and…..
Q: What did he say?
CAROL: Well there was 3 of us then you see so I'm not sure if I ever did stand for her - I
think he scored my name out whenever I looked back at him….*03:40:51:02+ (laugh)
there was 3 of us …and that was a big thing and … y’know, I know….Rosie says- I really
want you to stand for …but I knew there was a 'but' in it and she was horrified having to
ask me - I think she wanted me to say 'sure it’s all right let them 2 do it - but I wanted to
stand for her first child y'know cos I was there when she was born and I wanted to be
part of it as well but guess what you’re standing for your child….but then I saw 3 of us
and thought uhuh….*03:41:19:20+
Q: So it sounds to me that here’s a community that has a bit of a psychological blockage
and that is this preoccupation with each other? So if that could be released in some way
and this is getting back to the theatre and the drama and some of your work as well, you
facilitate as well I gather - so is that what you are hoping to achieve on some level?
[03:41:46:23] (Carol) …without a doubt …I say this
�Q: Is that what is driving you?
CAROL: This is not boasting but I have actually…we have moved mountains in
Cookstown…through my art work and my writing …I wrote the story about Tony and I afraid to tell our parents and I wrote it in a very humorous way…we sold out 34 times in
the North and I had letters from mixed marriages …people stopped me and said ‘Carol
you have no idea how near the knuckle that was’ - I cried when I went home and I had
letters from, Carol, honest to god that just made it…I made it so funny….that my father
laughed till the tears were running onto his tie…*03:42:35:17+ he cried…and I can tell
you now that …..on one of…the night that my father was there - 3 seats behind him
there was an escapee from Portlaoise prison who was released years ago - sitting behind
my father and I remember looking through a crack in the set cos I wanted to see was
Daddy laughing or disgusted, but he was in hysterics laughing and the man behind him
was in hysterics laughing and I often…I do say oh my god…look what we have done with
a bit of craic on the stage and everybody was hitting one another - did you hear
that….*03:43:07:14+ nobody knew anybody and I knew… I knew that I had moved people
…and I mean, it’s ridiculous to say it but it changed people's minds on what we'd done
that night in that play. Absolutely changed them - changed their opinion and people was
brought down slightly about saying things - they thought it was amazing - y'know …it
was very bold to do it but we done it and it really it….*03:43:31:19+
Q: And humor was the key?
CAROL: Without the shadow of a doubt ….y'know every show that I have y'know….I
have to bring something to do with y’know the orange and the green into it because I do
think….I don't know… maybe I have the gift of just bringing it right to the very edge - not
far enough for it to fall over but just enough for people to say …and then laugh
y'know…but I have to say it was through art…art is one of the ways - art and sports and I
say this in every show - I said - get your kids into art, the arts - any part of the arts, music
and sport… and that will keep them integrated *03:44:10:03+
Q: It’s expression as well.
CAROL: Oh for sure
Q: Did your family go to see any of Carol's work?
TONY: [03:44:17:02] They’re not great theatre goer's to be honest with you - they rarely
went to see me even before Carol joined the group that I was in so I didn't really. I just
took it for granted that they're not really into theatre or that sort of thing so I just, after
a few performances I just let it go, they're not going to come…they came to some …but
few…but I think it’s one of the ways as Carol says, of developing community you know
cohesion and stuff ….and even as far as me living that 90% ..99% housing estate with
�Carol initially, If I could be one person to get out and meet some other people and be
able to wave to my neighbors and when they’re taking in their dustbins and say hullo
and lend them a hand if they were carrying something heavy and then I could knock on
their door and say could you lend me a spade?….*03:45:24+ that one person is not a
danger to the 99, to the 99 people but you are an example of what can happen to them,
it makes them think maybe they're not all the same or we could maybe live with one or
two more of those people in our community - there wouldn't be any danger and they
are quite ok - and the same with drama, they slowly…this place here by slowly bringing
in people without meaning really to do anything…directly about that community
cohesion, but by slowly just making everybody feel welcome at home and part of a
team, you can slowly…subconsciously bring them to not thinking about being different
so they slowly become just….don't think about it, just come here….or…*03:45:46:14+
(Carol) You have to draw them in, you can't force them or invite them you have to draw
them in - and I'm amazing at drawing them in, and once you get them in y'know there's
no turning back - once you get them in – I mean like that drama today we were drew
into that all right !! [03:46:00:03] Y'know so there's no turning back so, things like that
there …if you are good at drawing them in - once you draw a group in, and then do your
work, your magic on them whatever …it’s unbelievable how people leave after a really
good workshop or piece of drama or whatever [03:46:18:17] (Tony) I think that’s why
politicians will not succeed cos they always have their agenda…their markers for their
position and all that there - this is a neutral sort of thing that doesn't have any agenda
behind it and it’ll work, where politicians always have an agenda or a…a background
that will go a certain direction (Carol) I met Martin McGuinness - remember we met
Martin McGuinness - never met him like - never shaked his hand - not telling anybody
that! but we were at…. We were at Yeats grave up in Sligo when we were away for a
weekend and we were coming out and Martin McGuinness was walking as well, we
were all coming out of the graveyard….and I thought oh my God… ten years ago I would
have fainted y'know but now I looked at him and thought he's just an ordinary man
that’s doing a job …y’know and I felt…actually felt sorry for him - I felt my god he's an
awful lot on his shoulders that has to prove to his people and prove to our people andthat must be one hell of a job to have to do…to keep us happy - to keep them happy y'know to keep everybody happy – it’s unreal [03:47:29:08] and then we went back to
the dining room the next morning and Nuala O'Loan …she was having her toast with us
too - we were - I thought - is it a sign that I have to stand for election next year? (laugh)
[03:47:40:24]
Q: And you wouldn't do that would you?
CAROL: D'you know this here ….it has been talked about….would I stand for election? I
probably would be thrown out of the council houses or council offices the first night
because I think I'd get a good vote - cos I'm a very…I'm a peoples person and I love - I
love people…I absolutely love people and I hate their pain and I always try and eliminate
pain by our drama groups, no matter what the pain comes from….I love to eliminate
�it….and I imagine …I tell you now I could flipping do a better job than a good few of the
politicians and our councilors - I would say that to them no problem [03:48:23:18]
Q: As an independent then?
CAROL: No I wouldn't stand for election and I'll tell you why…here what I'm doing I have
no red tape - nobody's holding my hands here or tying my hands …I'm free to do
whatever I want in this place - I can bring in….we had a Portuguese night here - 80
Portuguese / African people came into this building and they had a ball… I can let them
out and bring in the Polish - I can have a Catholic night and a Protestant night - I can
have a mixed night whatever but if I was on the council and I was ……even independent
…you'd have to be good mannered and you'd have to go down a path - I'm not like that I don't think we should be here with…we need certain rules and regulations but I don't
do rules and regulations …I think, I'm a free burden..I like everybody to express how
they are feeling…..so no I'll not be standing for election …just in case people, that rumor
gets out *03:49:19:00+ wouldn't do it….I think they would vote me in actually….
Q: Carol when I thought when you said if you scratch the surface it could erupt again?….
CAROL: [03:49:33:22] Without a shadow…there's people waiting on it …..you know that
red face - you know the way they were sitting today? That’s….that’s absolutely ….there
are some…but you know this…I'm not sure….cos you're from Dublin…I'm not sure if you
know the hold that the Troubles had on people - you ask any pharmacy or any GP how
many prescribed drugs there are for depression,….where did all these suicides come out
of? …and I sit and I think this and…please God if this ever would get on a video what I'm
going to say….but whenever…like I mean there's been horrific things and y’know the
Omagh bombing and Teebane up the road and that shooting and y'know other peoples
shooting….but there were people who were addicted to that - there had to be people
addicted to being given an order to do a job…and making the phone call - I've done it on the news that night - now I don't imagine anybody who shot people or blew them up
were sitting in a house…some people would think they’re all laughing the night and
y’know drinking beer - I don't think that happened….*03:50:48:20+ I think that the
people that done the killings, on both sides,……they were trying to make a point - of
course they were trying to make a point but they done it by murdering and…the bigger
the bomb or whatever the more recognition they would get and the nearer to their goal
that they would get ….but….I, I never….I, I don't know…. I just think when then all the
Troubles stopped and blaring of horns one night that everything was all come
good….that’s when it come bad….cos nobody was ever weaned off the Troubles….it was
taken off them overnight……bury your guns its over….well, I'm addicted to
chocolate….and if you take my chocolate off me overnight I, I would really get the
shakes and if you said to me you're never allowed chocolate again - and that’s
simplifying it - I'd be distraught - so I can only imagine to be addicted to the adrenalin of
shooting a man or a woman or blowing up somebody to get attention for your side, for
�the political divide….to take that off them overnight and not wean them off it
*03:51:58:09+ …there was a period there where nothing happened to nobody….and then
we have suicides…a lot of…all our…stabbings - stabbings is taken off up here - we used
to be you would hear of a stabbing in Cork or down in Kerry but there was never none of
this happening now - now we've drugs ….. y'know so….we're no better off because
there's peace because all these other elements of stuff that the people are getting their
kicks out of have gone into so….really and truly we have an awful lot of cleaning up to
do to make people feel happy, but I do think….that whenever they ended….when the
Good Friday agreement and all was signed - the people who were getting the praise for
doing that forgot about the people in-between that was doing their work for them when
they were giving orders [03:52:50:16] so now all these people feel abandoned and
rejected….y’know like if I was your boss at the times of the Troubles and you said to me
it’s over Carol – it’s completely over and then I'm looking at you in a new 3 piece suit
and a big wage packet and I'm still in the Brew - you're not giving me the money you
used to give me or the praise you used to give me for doing the work for you…. sure
how do you think I would feel? [03:53:12:13] I'd feel totally abandoned and totally
rejected….so y'know while people say oh….they're wreaking and tearing… I understand
why they are wreaking and tearing….. they were addicted to an adrenalin that they were
told was…y'know going to be…if you do this for us we are going to have the most
wonderful country in the world…and them critters overnight were told NOT to do it any
more, and I'm sure the people giving the orders didn't take them all into a room and do
a 10 week course on how to wean themselves off this adrenalin and put them onto a
different adrenalin - so they found it themselves….*03:53:54:08+ in a not so nice way…
Q: So it could erupt again?….
CAROL: oh for sure…
Q: It kind of is already in pockets isn't it? Still a lot of anger.
CAROL: [03:54:06:21] But y'know you'll always seek that adrenalin …if there was a time
in your life with that adrenalin rush y'know and….and somebody saying 'well done'
'Good man'….I don't know what happened sure I was never…but I'm just …I’m only
surmising in my head 'oh my god that was brilliant…well done …good bit of work
tonight'…and then take it off you…y'know..you're left with nothing, no praise, no
money, no future… *03:54:29:22+ …the way YOU saw…the way you were TOLD that the
future was going to happen…it’s been taken off you..so I, I look at all of them and ….all
of our politicians on both sides and I think Oh my god I feel…I really feel sorry for them
….for they had to make the transition overnight and then try to draw in ..y'know…but
it’s still drawing in two different crowds - there's never one party that can draw in both
crowds *03:54:57:17+ and that’s just sad y'know?
�Q: And do you think there’s a solution to that? Is there a way that these people who
have been left, as it were, is there a therapy that can be done for these people,
something that can be done by society to help them?
CAROL: [03:55:21:03] Well y'know we just have to keep on working at what we are
doing, it’s….it’s not too late, because if you say it’s too late then everybody goes oh god
I'm stuck in this dark hole, there's a lot of people in dark holes at the minute …OK at one
time I thought I could …heal the world…and then when you realize it’s too big, you can't
even heal your own town …I think leading by example is absolutely the best way
forward is to lead by example…I don't know…y’know it would be so lovely - I'm a peace
woman - I love harmony…hate pain …but I love people, I don't care who they are, what
color their skin is, what shape or size doesn't come into it - I LOVE people - I hate their
pain…I love to see them reaching their full potential because everybody has it but that
middle bracket of people now that have been left behind, don't know it. [03:56:15:00]
They only ever saw themselves as being perfect because they were told they were
perfect after doing something horrific for the cause, on both sides, and then they were
left with no education, most of them….no money, no praise , they were left with nothing
- and they were abandoned – the people were abandoned [03:56:34:05]
Q: And the onus is on the leaders basically?
CAROL: [03:56:37:10] Well I…how can the leaders now go back and say we're on a
different shift here, y'know, we're on the turn again, because then it’s going to create
more problems…. I don't know I think there needs to be…I don't know…I really have no
answer - if I had the answer for that …well y’know there would be tents in Cookstown
and we'd all be living in one tent …I don't know …but I do think there's a way – y’know if
you can build wee pockets of harmony and spread that to another wee pocket and
spread it to another wee pocket then at least we're doing something every day - I don't
think we should stop because we’re only changing the minds of 3 people a week - I think
those 3 people are very important and they can change 3 more the next week …and
that’s, it’s going to be a long process…but…I think eventually it will come round
….*03:57:23:15+Q that’s a positive note to end on….
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
24
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Carol Doey and Tony Mc Gurk (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
21 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3458
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/892d5acf5199122b096c768baf4ceb5e.pdf
0d40bc468368ad9eac75657c02c80e73
PDF Text
Text
6 October 2013
Interview with:
Peter Conlon
Ex-Member of An Garda Síochána, Ireland
Venue: Abbey Arts Centre, Ballyshannon
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: D50013
Start TC: 06:38:41:07
Q: Just tell us where you were born, Peter.
PETER: [06:40:19:15] I was born just outside Clones, an area in County Monaghan
unaccessible by road through the county, it was along the concession road between
Cavan and Clones, and to get to or from it, you had to travel through Northern Ireland.
And maybe for the information of some of the younger people - the concession road
was a road where you could travel from one part of the state to another through
Northern Ireland without stopping, otherwise you had to go by the customs post at the
time and produce your logbook and have it stamped in and out…[06:40:55:24]
Q: OK so you were used to the fact that you were on the border with the United
Kingdom, so when you became a Garda and got posted in this area, you were used to
that life?
PETER: [06:41:13:21] I was, yes I was familiar with the border life.
Q: And would you, how would you describe your upbringing?
PETER: [06:41:19:18] Well I was brought up on a farm and I went to the local National
school, I cycled to the Secondary school in Clones, and I went through Northern
�Irelandtwice on me way to and from school and then I joined the Guards at 20 years of
age. [06:41:43:00]
Q: So you would have been aware of Nationalism as opposed to Unionism? Was that
evident in your upbringing, in your education?
PETER: [06:41:59:21] Oh it would, and around the neighborhood and in fact my next
door neighbors would have been Church of Ireland, but there was very good
relationship between people from the both religious sides in the area and there was no
problem at all. [06:42:15:08]
Q: And where was your first posting as a Guard?
PETER: [06:42:19:22] After training I went to Granard in County Longford and I did over
a year there and then I went to Muffin County Donegal which is just on the outskirts of
Derry city, so it was, you could say back home again to the border. [06:42:41:10]
Q: Then your posting to theBallyshannon area just as things started to heat up in
Northern Ireland in '69?
PETER: [06:42:52:07] Yes I come to Ballyshannon as a Sergeant in 1969, and the
Troubles in Northern Ireland hadn't spilled over to the border area at that stage, sure
the strength of the station here at the time was 1 Superintendent, an Inspector, 2
uniformed Sergeants, 8 uniform Gardai together with 1 Detective Guard and a Guard in
the Superintendent’s office - clerical officer. [06:43:20:05]
Q: And that mushroomed very quickly then in tandem with the Troubles?
PETER: [06:43:26:23] Thefollowing year it wasn't so busy, there was some odd . . there
were odd bank raids the following year and checkpoints were set up during the day, and
checking people…it inconvenienced the locals, being stopped and checked but it wasn't
so serious. But a couple of years later things…. deteriorated and…. the police station in
Belleek which was just across the border, across the river, was being attacked from the
Republic of Ireland - it was only a matter of 6 or 700 yards from the border, and shots
were being fired across at the police station [06:44:10:05] with the result a Garda
checkpoint was placed out near the border at, near Belleek. It was backed up by some of
the Irish Army, there was another checkpoint placed at Ballyshannonbridge, and it didn't
have armed backup except on occasion of a raid or some problem in the area, with a
result the strength of the station increased to 5 sergeants, and over 50 Gardai.
[06:44:43:24]
Q: And on the other side of the border, were there as many RUC officers in the area?
�PETER: [06:44:50:24]There were a good number of RUC officers in Belleek, but they
didn't do a lot of patrolling I would say, the patrols probably come from outside areas
like maybe Kesh and Enniskillen - it was more a holding station at that stage.
[06:45:06:20]
Q: What were relationships like between the Gardai and the RUC?
PETER: [06:45:10:07] We didn't have much contact, we just, you would have phone
contact - if an incident happened you would be notified and . . but there was, there was
no face to face meetings [06:45:22:06]
Q: So you didn't know each other very well?
PETER: [06:45:23:21] No, you didn't, you just knew the voice but there wasn't much
contact otherwise. [06:45:28:14]
Q: Was there hostility?
PETER: No there wasn't no… we got on well but it was just the policy at the time that
you didn't meet one another. [06:45:39:10]
Q. So what was life like here?
PETER: When I come first it was a quiet town, there were very little crime, very few
public order offences and it was a town that didn't need an awful lot of policing, In fact
there were very few patrols out after 12 midnight –and the south of the county was
quiet. There was 1 Garda patrol car and 1 motorcycle operating from Ballyshannon
station, covering the full district form Bundoran to Killybegs so it was basically a crime
free area.[06:46:21:19]
Q: And that changed?
PETER: [06:46:26:02That changed, there was a lot of problems ….. when there were
armed robberies and cross border attacks so it changed completely. [06:46:37:04]
Q: Was Head Office sensitive to the increased pressure?
PETER: Well they obviously were when they put permanent checkpoints at the bridge in
Ballyshannon, again out near the border at Clyhore. Of course the bridge at
Ballyshannon was the only exit or entry point to the Republic without crossing the
border through Northern Ireland so it was very important I suppose to have a check on
the bridge owing to the circumstances. [06:47:14:24]
�Q: You said before that solving local crime was relatively easy compared to political
motivated crime - explain please?
PETER: 06:47:29:12] Well, you, if an ordinary crime happened in the town, it was
normally solved, but if you had some political crime out on the border, it wasn't so easy.
People had a fear of talking to the Gardaiand I suppose you could see the reason
why,and they would feel under threat from some of the subversive organizations
[06:47:59:04]
Q: And you understood that?
PETER: [06:48:00:16] Yeah I would have understood that.
Q: I suspect through Intelligence you probably knew who the people were but were
unable to put a case together?
PETER: You would know some of the activists and some would come in from outside
areas but you'd have a good idea of who was involved but…. you would have no
evidence. [06:48:24:09]
Q: Tell me about the armed robbery that occurred right on the border?
PETER: [06:48:28:09 It was December 1971, we got a report that there was an armed
robbery on Belleek bridge. At the time, the workers in Belleek pottery were paid on a
Friday, the cash was obtained from a bank in Ballyshannon and taken out to pay the
wages. When the 2 officials from Belleek China arrived at the bridge in Belleek, a car
crossed the bridge and blocked their way….a raid was carried out and we were called
out [06:49:08:23] to the scene. I arrived out together with another Sergeant and a
Guard, we discovered that the car was just on the border - if you go from Ballyshannon
to Belleek, there’s a brass stud in the right hand side of the bridge, and, indicating the
border, about 6 or 7 yards further towards Belleek there's another brass stud. The
Fermanagh County Council had tarred the road down as far as the stud on the right
hand side, the car was actually in on that tarmac but the front wheels were in Northern
Ireland, the rear wheels were in the Republic [06:49:52"19] there was a discussion with
the RUC sergeant about the location of the robbery - it couldn't be established which
side of the border the raid took place in with a result that is was decided that the local
engineer would be called and he would decide where the crime took place
[06:50:13:02]. He arrived, he checked between the 2 brass studs and he said if the
money's taken from the front of the car, the crime was in County Fermanagh and if it
was taken from the rear of the car then it was in the Republic. And we ended up
investigating the crime because the money was taken from the rear of the car.
[06:50:34:17]
Q: So the RUC would have been there as well?
�PETER: OH the RUC sergeant was there as well, we were both called to the scene.
Q: And you discussed this?
PETER: We discussed the situation and none of us were agreeing which side of the
border it was on so the engineer decided it for us. [06:50:54:15]
Q and was the crime solved?
PETER: The crime wasn't solved, the car, the car was got abandoned up a side road that
was cratered adjacent to the garrison Belleek road, so obviously they made their escape
that way and it was a stolen car that was found. [06:51:11:12]
Q: Was that commonplace?
PETER: That was the story so…it was another unsolved crime
Q: And the border line?
PETER: [06:51:31:22] The border line, I suppose…. the Fermanagh county council tarring
the road just tarred slightly into the Republic and I'd say the people that carried out the
raid would have assumed that the crime took place in County Fermanagh
(laugh).[06:51:45:16]
Q: So tell me about the second story?
PETER: [06:51:56:11] It’s, oh it could have been, around the same time a prominent
politician in Northern Ireland said that the Gardaí weren't welcome in Northern Ireland,
there was a direction from Garda Headquarters that Gardaí shouldn't enter Northern
Ireland off duty, so I was in an awkward situation because if I wanted to go home, I
couldn't get home without going through Northern Ireland, some of my relations lived in
County Fermanagh, so I ignored the direction. I went off one day, to Clones, and the
family was with me, and the children were in the back of the car, and as we come into
Enniskillen, an RUC constable stopped me and she asked me where I was coming from
[06:52:51:08] where I was going and I said Ballyshannon to Clones, and as I was taking
out me driving license, the youngest girl in the back of the car, spoke up and said 'my
daddy's a Guard too!' so the RUC lady said go ahead, so I didn't have to open the boot!
[06:53:12:17]
Q: You were telling me about a 3rd incident?
PETER: [06:53:24:06] Another incident wherethe roads were cratered at the time and
you would have to go the main road through a checkpoint to go from North to South -
�there was a body set up to try and get the roads open again and a number of people got
involved in it. And one particular man in a family, got involved in the campaign to open
the roads, and they used to hold meetings and they would close in the roads and a large
number of demonstrators would arrive. But once they would leave, the road would be
filled in again, and there was a case. This was. . this person who was involved in the road
open committee had brothers and they all used the one car [06:54:22:02] and if they
were crossing the border, if he was driving the car, he would be stopped at the British
Army checkpoint, he'd be held and delayed, so this day there was a football match south
of the border and the other 2 brothers decided they would go and they would leave
Tony at home. [06:54:40:14] And he insisted on going and they said no you're not
coming because we'll be late for the match - we'll be held. So he insisted, he got into the
rear of the car and they drove to the checkpoint, and he was asked for his driving
license, his name, obviously the number of the car was put on computer and it was
shown up as a car used by the person involved in the opening the roads committee
[06:55:09:02] and he took his name and he asked for the name of the other passengers,
and he gave the other brothers name, and he said who else have you? And he said Tony.
‘Oh he said, you have left Anthony at home today? The Englishman didn't distinguish
between, that Tony and Anthony was one and the same person so he waved them on.
[06:55:32:05]
Q: I'm curious about the tension around then, did that make the lob stressful?
PETER: [06:55:56:00] It did to a certain extent but you got used to it after a while like
there was problems in that people were being inconvenienced - there was a checkpoint
on Ballyshannon bridge, and people were going over and back to school and they were
being stopped and the locals would be known and be waved on but the problem would
be that there would be a lot of cars passing through and there was a big build up so it
was very distressful. You were holding people up and you were delaying them …. and
then at that stage too, during the summer, you had a lot of people traveling into
Bundoran and Rossnowlagh for the summer, and they were, the checkpoint out near
Belleek was causing problems. [06:56:36:22] And you would always try and send extra
Guards out on a Sunday around 1pm, 12 noon to 1pm to try and alleviate the problem,
because you had children coming in cars and the sun beating down on them, a hot day,
and here they were being inconvenienced and you still had to check cars because apart
from anything else [06:57:05:23] there was always the threat of a UVF attack, and in fact
there was a UVF attack in 1969 on the power station in Ballyshannon. People arrived
and placed a bomb in the power station and it exploded prematurely and didn't do a lot
of harm but there was a man killed unfortunately - a man from County Down and he
possibly got involved with the UVF, someone asked him to join, he joined up and he
come here and he, he was badly burned in the incident and died a few days later in the
Shiel Hospital. [06:57:51:09] So you had to weigh up that possibility of wrong doing so
you had to check cars, and, coming through and nevertheless you were conscious of the
fact that you were holding up the 99% of the genuine people who were coming through.
[06:58:11:10]
�Q: Did you personally experience much in the way of murders or killings etc?
PETER: [06:58:19:03] There were some shootings in Belleek, there was one case where
an Army officer was shot in Belleek, he came down from the police station, they were
based in the police station, and he stopped across the road at Slater’s corner and
someone was on high ground and fired a shot and killed him, and, we didn't have any
murders on our side but it was related to the border area. [06:58:55:23]
Q: So your wife and family must have been concerned for you?
PETER: [06:59:01:13] Well not so much because…..at the time….there was no Gardai
injured or attacked, it was just the normal run of the mill and you didn't feel under big
pressure or you never went out with the fear of anything happening. [06:59:24:12]
Q: Was there fear in the community at all?
PETER: [06:59:28:21] There was fear for a while after the occasion of the UVF bombing
out at the power station on the Belleek road, people were concerned, and then there
was a bit of concern I suppose during the summer months when the tourists come in
but after a while people get used to these things and they just put it behind them.
[06:59:55:20]
Q: Have things changed much now?
PETER: [07:00:06:06] Oh things are a lot more relaxed and …. at that stage everyone was
under a bit of pressure, if they were traveling they were allowing extra time, and then
you had the situation where roads were blocked and people going to visit their
neighbours had to make a detour of maybe 10 or 15 miles but all the roads have been
opened up and there,things have changed for the better.[07:00:31:10]
Q: Did the Gardaí have any responsibility for lads on the run coming over the border?
Did they have to be on the lookout for them?
PETER:[07:00:45:17] You would always be on the lookout for people in case they would
be, y'know people could be carrying guns or weapons and if anyone was found in
possession of guns or explosives, they would be arrested but very, very seldom that
would happen.[07:01:09:15]
Q: A politician said Gardaí weren’t welcome in Northern Ireland possibly because there
was a feeling that the Gardaí were possibly turning a blind eye to troubles on their side
of the border - how do you feel?
�PETER: [07:01:33:06] Well he possibly had something like that in mind but as far as I was
concerned the Gardaí were very active in pursuing wrong doers and that wasn't the
situation, so he might have perceived it to be. 07:01:48:23]
Q: Thanks, great, thank you very much indeed
END IV [07:01:58:14]
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Peter Conlon
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Peter Conlon
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
8
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Peter Conlon (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
6 October 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3457
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/6e1115bdf641ea8213605b3ef4992252.pdf
940e1d6e91194749390ef8013ad5c1ba
PDF Text
Text
6 October 2013
Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: Ards Arts Centre, Newtownards, County Down.
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
File No: D70010
TC Start: 03:03:58:14
Q: OK so maybe Billy you could tell us where you were born and grew up?
BILLY: 03:04:24:08] Well I was born in Newtownards, County Down, late 1957, went to
primary school there, did all my schooling in Newtownards, second eldest of 6, 2 sisters
and 3 brothers. My mum and dad are still alive…. I see them…. maybe 2 or 3 times a
month [03:04:54:00].
Q: What was family life like growing up?
BILLY: [03:04:58:20] Tough. I mean there wasn't a great deal of money y'know and even
though, even though my dad had served his country in the Army, it was still difficult to
get a Housing Executive property, a council property which, you'd think at the time….
Protestants would have been top of the lists for getting properties, but it wasn't always
the case. [03:05:23:01] y'know, whether or not you’d have served your country, that
didn't seem to matter at all. [03:05:29:09]
Q: Maybe you could talk a bit about your experience of the conflict - when you first
became aware of it?
�BILLY: 03:05:41:17] I think I really first became aware, it became real, was the night I
watched all the B Specials handing in their weapons, it was on TV, the B Specials were
handing in their weapons to the local Police station. Which, that, that meant that no
longer did the B Specials have weapons, right? And later on they formed the UDR which
in effect a lot of old B Specials joined and …. to keep this Protestant thing going, being
armed [03:06:29:20] legally armed, and that didn't include me. I mean I was only a child
but my father, my father would have nothing to with them either, he just . . . he just
didn't want to know….. he was offered to join …. and he used a few choice words, which
I shan’t re-iterate here, but he was not having any of it [03:06:59:05], right ……
BILLY: [03:07:52:09] Well I first became aware that something was happening when I
saw the B Specials handing in all their weapons at the local police station, cos, I mean
everyone in the protestant community knew that the B Specials were exclusively
protestant. And supposedly the saviours of the protestant community which I never,
ever agreed with but, I mean my father was approached to join the paramilitaries and
he told them in no uncertain terms to disappear, he wasn't interested….. I used to be a
member of St John's Ambulance brigade and one evening when I was going
[03:08:46:20] to St John's, a car stopped, and I was put against the wall by 3 or 4 quite
burly persons and I was told that I had to join, and again I told them in no uncertain
terms - not a chance - that I was looking…. working towards coming a nurse therefore
being involved in such activity would stop me becoming a nurse…. I got a couple of
slaps. But then I had a word with a few people and any pressure on me stopped
completely [03:09:29:10] I was, leave him alone he's doing what he wants to do - he's
not against us y'know so….. it was accepted as such…… I mean growing up I had some
really good Catholic friends …. really close Catholic friends, myself and my friend Painty
we, I mean y'know, there was me and Painty and a group of Catholics so Painty and I
didn't …. have any problem with people of different religions especially not Catholics
[03:10:07:14] …. in fact the majority of my girlfriends throughout my life have been
Catholic for some reason (laugh) I don't know why but that’s how it’s worked out.
[03:10:22:24]
Q: What was it like being a teenager during the conflict?
BILLY: [03:10:27:19] Well... it didn't really affect me a great deal because I would go to
Portrush to the motorcycle races, I would go into Belfast every Saturday to a blues club
and listen to blues and the thing is that the blues club was mainly frequented by
Catholics …. and I never had any hassle, we just went there to have, to listen to good
music …. And, and have a few beers…. And never had any problem. [03:10:59:23]
Q: And was your family ever directly impacted …….by the conflict?
BILLY: 03:11:09:14] Well the only impact, well, my brother was blown up …. in 1979 but
he survived, and he has no hatred, he has no animosity. So I feel, well what, why should
�I have any animosity? I mean he networks with ex combatants now and he knows a lot
of ex combatants, people, that no doubt, 20 years ago he'd have been trying to
kill…..and were trying to kill him…. *03:11:53:10+ but as I say, if he can live with it ….I
don't see why more people can’t. [03:12:01:23]
Q: Could you maybe tell me the details about what happened?
BILLY: 03:12:06:15] ...That day, his unit was on its, their way to South Armagh…. and
they were coming past….Narrow Water at Warrenpoint when an explosion happened in
a hay cart…… then after the quick response team had come, and were, they were being
fired upon from across the border from the Republic over to…. onto Narrow Water
where they were ….. and when the QRF came, the Quick Reaction Force came, another
explosion went off….and ….. *03:12:56:20+ killed 2 members of another regiment who
were there at the same time so in all, all told that day there were 18 soldiers killed. The
biggest day's loss I think that the British Army had during the conflict. [03"13:16:09]
Q: And your brother survived?
BILLY: [03:13:22:06] Yes…yes.. I mean he lost close friends obviously, I mean …….
people he had joined the Army with at 16 so y'know, at that age friendships grow pretty
close, especially under the, the circumstances of all…. going for the same thing within
the military, so they forge close friendships….. *03:13:48:10+…… I myself was on duty……
in a different regiment that day so I didn't actually hear about him being blown up until
about 10 o’clock that night …. and needless to say I was, I was a bit upset, and I went to
see my company Sergeant Major, and I, I was visibly upset, I mean he told me to sit
down and cry if I had to cry - which I did……. and he sent me to the armoury to pick up a
weapon…… and got me taken to Royal Victoria Military Hospital, or Musgrave Park
Military Hospital …. and the corporal wasn't going to let me into intensive care
[03:14:40:09] and I threw a bit of a hissy fit, and let him know that I wasn't any stranger
to working in sterile….. active…..y'know sterile areas, so he gowned me up and I went
in to see him…… and, and the very first words he said to me was 'Billy, they got us really
well' *03:15:08:08+ ….and that's….. that will forever be with me …… that he, even at that
early stage, he didn't have hatred…. although he was in shock, he was more impressed
with the way they had got them….. yeah so…… Margaret Thatcher couldn't get into to
see the person I saw! [03:15:35:16]
Q: And did she want to?
BILLY: 03:15:37:00] Oh yes she tried to, but they wouldn't let her in, they just wouldn't
let her in ……. so this little man here has done something Margaret Thatcher couldn't
do! [03:15:48:00]
Q: And was there anybody else you knew growing up, involved in the conflict?
�BILLY: 03:15:53:05+ ……… I knew a guy from Newtownards who was a policeman who
was killed at Downpatrick ….. again terrorist activity, I knew a guy from Holywood who
used to sleep in a car in Newtownards, he was homeless, and he joined the Royal Army
Air Corps and he was killed as a result of terrorist activity ….. as far as it goes there are
other people I know of but I don't really want to talk about them….*03:16:36:05+ cos I
don't think it’s appropriate .
Q: And then, what happened after that when you hit your 20's?
BILLY: 03:16:46:14+ Well…… I really couldn't wait to get out of Northern Ireland because
although I came from a Protestant, Unionist background, something inside me told me
that that’s not all I was….. so when, when I came to England ….. it gave me license to
become more Irish, if you know what I mean…… I mean I, I could go to pubs and sing
what I considered to be Irish folk tunes, which were frowned upon ….by protestants in
the North of Ireland which I couldn't …… I couldn't understand, I thought it was….
y'know ….. they, they frowned on you singing Dubliners songs purely because they were
Dubliners songs [03:17:45:05+ not necessarily rebel songs…. but they were still frowned
upon …. so my soiree in England (laugh) I mean I did psychiatric nursing when I was
there and I was glad to do that because again I met a vast array of people…… some of
them I liked and some I didn't (laugh) but there was always….*03:18:09:08+ you'd always
find one person who'd be picking away because I was Irish - be picking away trying to
get me to let my barriers down, Oh Gerry Adams this, Gerry Adams that, and I
personally didn't like the man and because even though I was a socialist and I didn't like
him…. this English guy that I knew thought this was terrible that I should support Gerry
Adams because I was a socialist and I tried to explain to the guy that there’s a lot more
than just being a socialist, than liking Gerry Adams - in his case it might have been so but
in my case, with my background, I couldn't, I didn't, I still don't like him [03:18:52:04] ….
I think he has a lot of things to answer for… as, no doubt, there are protestant politicians
in power now that still have things to answer for… but as I say, with the situation in
Northern Ireland now it seems anybody's game…. That anybody's game to be a
politician, regardless of what they have committed in the past…… which I think is
wrong……… right…… *03:19:24:11+*microphone adjustment+
Q: I was just thinking, what was it like to be Irish in England during that period?
BILLY: [03:19:51:00] I mean…… obviously ….. I mean in the 70's and in the early 80's……
there were a lot of atrocities, in England, that were caused by Irishmen ….. I felt a little
bit of angst from other people, but much less angst than I would have felt had I been in
Northern Ireland….. y'know [03:20:25:04] and, and the very fact that I had an Army
number, I'd been in the Army - helped a great deal – cos if I got into any….. if the police
started on me or whatever, I just give them my Army number and tell them to ring and
find out who I was - and it happened on a few occasions, and they came back and said
sorry for bothering you, sorry for bothering you, but….*03:20:47:08+ I suppose once
you're…… once you are classed as an Irishman - I mean it’s what you are….. especially
�in… in the dark days when there was so much violence in England…. I mean I had my
door knocked at 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning on a few occasions because something
had happened in London or you know, but not often, not often. [03:21:18:05]
Q: And then when you moved back to Ards, did you come back with a different
perspective?
BILLY: [03:21:27:15] Completely …. when I came back to live in Northern Ireland, I felt
like a fish out of water…… but by that time …even….. even at that time there were a
couple of pubs I could go to and sing the songs that I wanted to sing….. things had
less….lessened a bit *03:21:56:06+ but….. then again there were more explosions in
Newtownards, and things…… I mean things are still the same ….I mean although there's
not as much activity as there was ….. the estates are still governed….. by…..illegal
organizations, by, by the UVF, by the UDA…. *03:22:23:21+ …. I don't have any
experience of the Catholic estates but… I know from what I hear that they’re still
governed by the IRA …..and by illegal organizations, it’s, because the working class
people - they really don't have a say……that if you're…. if you're unfortunate enough to
live in an estate, you're bound by what that estate says [03:22:52:03] I mean I, I
couldn't …. there are lots of activities I can't take part in, in my estate because it is ….it's
a UVF estate and it will always be a UVF estate - I mean as far as I can see in the future I don't see things changing that much. [03:23:10:19]
Q: And how do they control the estate?
BILLY: [03:23:15:15] Well they police the estate themselves, you don't ring the police,
you don't ring the police, you... go and speak to someone higher up the totem pole and
then it supposedly gets sorted. [03:23:35:16]
Q: And you don't see that changing?
BILLY: [03:23:40:20] Not that I can see, no, no, it, it’s been too long, I mean once the
estates go up…..once the estates go up then a body takes over the security of the
estate…..and it doesn't matter what estate you go to, you'll see murals and they will
largely say who is in charge in that estate. [03:24:10:03]
Q: Anything else? What you didn't, or wasn't clear was that you were in the Army… it
was referred to … it’s going to take generations to exorcise all of the hatred - that’s
fundamentally what it is…. and I just wonder what you think?
BILLY: [03:24:51:16] You see I don't know… I don't have any hatred, I don't have any
hatred….. because personally I wasn't injured, right….not … it’s just my brother and if my
brother can forgive……. I'm not in any position to disagree with him…. or to do
differently….. because it wasn't my life on the line - it was his - and he survived.
[03:25:23:14]
�Q: Have you witnessed or heard of other hatreds?
BILLY: [03:25:28:06] I know people, and I've had a drink with people who ……even to
this day, just do not like Catholics - they're an anathema completely, but they know
where I stand – and if they want to spend time in my company that’s just it, they don't
start talking about…… things that I disagree with……. Or, or things that are contentious there’s no point cos it only brings up memories, brings up things that are best left to
sleep *03:26:11:18+ ….and the, the thing, the thing about Northern Ireland is people's
memories are too long y'know…. I mean there were dark days, there were dark days for
both communities …and both…. there were dark days caused by both communities and
until….. until they both come to grips with the point that they both have points to
answer, they both have….. they have points to answer ….. it’s like the matter…. don't
pee in my back door - do it in someone else's - NIMBY's, not mine, but they all have their
own demons to answer *03:26:59:13+ …… and a lot of them …. y'know a lot of them are
being answered but no doubt …… until we can….. until we can get to the point where
grandfathers aren't going and attacking the police …..on lines…. at a demonstration,
because if the …if the children and the grandchildren see the grandfather going and
doing things like that it just gives a red light…. a green light just continue behaving like
that *03:27:30:19+ ….. it’s got to start with those that were involved, teaching the ones
that are now coming up behind that it’s not a good thing to be involved - that the only
way we are ever going to have any semblance of peace and normality living together, is
if we accept each other’s differences, and celebrate each other's differences if needs be.
[03:27:53:18]
Q: And what do you think about the 12th?
BILLY: *03:27:57:17+ It’s a nice wee festival, but that’s it, I, I no longer have any faith in
Orangism per se, it’s OK y'know….. it’s an old institution…. but…. again I think that it… it
may have outlived its usefulness……I think. *03:28:25:17+
Q: And Billy are your moderate views reflective of a minority or majority?
BILLY: [03:28:51:12] I think that the people, I think …intelligent people…….people who
realize the situation, being moderate is on the increase, but at the very start there was
only a minority that started the Trouble - on both sides - and as long as there is that
unrest among minorities, who knows what tomorrow can bring? y'know, it doesn't
take……. it doesn't take a whole lot of people to start a revolution…. y'know ……
revolution for good or bad, it, it’s unimportant …..I mean Hitler was only one man and I
rest my case on that one. [03:29:46:13]
END IV [03:29:52:19]
�Interview with:
William Caughey
Ex-Member of the British Army, Psychiatric Nurse
Venue: 30 November 2014, Leinster Cricket Club
The Memory Project
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
TC: 00:28:15:24
Q: Okay I’m good to record, turn off my phone, you okay?
BILLY: Yeah.
Q: When you went up to Sligo, what did Freda tell you were in for?
BILLY: Well she said I’d be playing a few games, you know theatre games and being silly,
and just allowing myself to be silly, to get to the, to make other people comfortable so
they would be in a position where they would be willing to tell their stories.
Q: Are you happy to play games in public?
BILLY: Provided it’s closed public, I, I wouldn’t be happy in the street doing games like
that but within the confines of the room, yes.
Q: So you didn’t find it awkward or sort of nerve wracking to go in?
BILLY: No, I had already played some games, theatre games before that anyway so I
was au fait with what was going to happen.
Q: Well even before you did those, I mean did you . . ?
BILLY: Well yes, I had done some things with Idan before, before we went to Sligo.
Q: I’m trying to get to the sense of someone coming into it for the first time, especially a
man. . would probably not, it wouldn’t necessarily be as easy, certainly from what I’ve
seen, women seem to find it easier.
BILLY: Well I think that may be true but, I, I think that you have to being willing to let
yourself, I mean there’s no point coming in to play these games if you’re going to have
something to say ‘oh no I’m too embarrassed, no I’m too embarrassed’, you have to put
yourself out on a limb in order to get the best from you, and allow yourself to be
�directed and have total trust, even running about with your eyes closed, so you have to
trust who is running the game.
Q: And how do you feel the games made you feel when you were doing it?
BILLY: I enjoyed the games in Sligo but what I enjoyed more than that was the reaction
of the older ladies, it was, I was quite impressed with the way they quickly settled down
and then were able and willing to tell their stories, which was really what we were after.
Q: And how did you feel about telling stories in front of strangers essentially?
BILLY: Well I mean it’s a story that has to be told, and if people like myself, and people
who remember it don’t tell it then it’ll never be told, so it’s important that we’re willing
to give of ourselves.
Q: Have you seen any reason to believe that not telling it is a problem?
BILLY: Me, reasons as a problem, no I don’t get any, I don’t have any problem with it, I
think perhaps some of the people where I live might have a problem but I know there
are a few people that are well aware of what I do in these theatre workshops because I
tell them why we’re doing it and what we’re doing and the majority of people just are
quite happy enough, y’know where I come from which is predominantly Protestant I
have had no problem with people being aggressive or anti. .
Q: What do you feel is being achieved through the workshops for yourself?
BILLY: For myself? Well I think it gives me a greater sense of perspective because I know
my story, which is probably an army related family story, but to hear the complete
opposite, the complete opposite stories to what I would be telling, from supposedly the
other side, I find that extremely interesting to see the hurt and damage and the scars
that other people have, because of some people on my supposed side of the argument
have behaved.
Q: Do you think it’s doing any good?
BILLY: Slowly. But I think it, it won’t come to fruition until we have the generation
following, that, they will get a understanding of what it was like, not just for their side
but for the other side, and have a little piece of empathy for how the other, the other
people felt, regardless of how you feel about their reasons, just on a humanitarian side
of ‘this is how this man felt, how this woman felt’, I think until they understand that, the
process will not move forward.
Q: Do you have any sort of sense of where Northern Ireland is going right now?
�BILLY: Ah. That’s a big question.
Q: I’m sorry, I, just there is a sense that Northern Ireland is not an entity in this, it’s
something that . . . people come in and talk a little bit about, I’m just curious that you’ve
had a large involvement in it.
BILLY: Yes.
Q: How do you feel, is it still today dangerous, do you feel?
BILLY: Yes. Of course, there are certain parts of the North I wouldn’t go to purely
because my face wouldn’t fit, or my accent, they would catch onto my accent and I
would be persona non grata. And that’s regardless, before they know what I am; the
way I speak would immediately, he’s Anglified, you know, so it wouldn’t go down well in
some quarters.
Q: So is there still a sense of fear in the North?
BILLY: Yes, very much so. I think that the organizations that were there during the
Troubles are still there, and they still have influence. All you’ve got to do is look at the
politicians, they, y’know they don’t leave the past behind them, they say that they’re
trying to improve things, but, I’m at a loss for the politicians in the North, I don’t think
that there’s a reasonable one among them.
Q: But if you’re saying the past. . leaving behind, surely this raising of stories is just
bringing up the past?
BILLY: Yes but you have to bring it up, you have to look at the old injury in order to heal
the old injury and there are injuries on both sides of, of the divide that, until they’re
looked at, they can never be healed.
Q: Thank you very much.
BILLY: You’re very welcome.
Q: Lovely, well spoken.
End of Interview
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
William Caughey
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with William Caughey
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
9
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by William Caughey (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
31 September 2013
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3456
Memory Project
Smashing Times
-
https://accounts.ulster.ac.uk/repo24/files/original/98a3e35737e747fc59469d5376785221.pdf
379c3c7f31bf60a693c218369b39a88a
PDF Text
Text
25 January 2014
Interview with:
Fiona Bawn Thompson, Actor and Facilitator and Choreographer
The Memory Project, Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd
Venue: Cavan
File No:
Start TC:
ST0103 (File 1 of 4)
01:41:36:24
Q: Fiona maybe start with a little bit about where you grew up and your family
FIONA: [01:41:48:00] OK I was born in Craigavon …Craigavon Area Hospital and I lived in
Portadown for the 1st year of my life and then moved to Craigavon, and I, I've been
living there ever since, for the past 30 plus years (laugh)…. so that’s basically where I
grew up and Craigavon, Portadown, Lurgan are all very….. very central to a lot of
Troubles and a lot of things that happened throughout the course of the Troubles.
[01:42:11:15]
Q: Was there anything significant happen in your life to do with the Troubles?
FIONA: [01:42:17:09] Yeah…there was a few incidents that happened and a few things
that I heard of …of people that were quite close to me, but because I was young it was
…. I was kind of sheltered away from it - there were 2 incidents that stood out
particularly, one was when my school got blew up by a 2000lb bomb - the police station
was beside my school, and when they blew up the police station and my school got blew
up with it. And the reason why that annoyed me so much was because we were in the
middle of a school play, and I was one of the main parts in the school play and I had my
big solo song/piece and central character and…. of course we couldn't …… this was 3
days before the, the school play went on so the school play never went on [01:43:00:21]
it was never shown and our school then…. of course after that then we were a little bit
happy because our school was off for an extra week or two (laugh) after Christmas, or
before Christmas, and then we got moved into mobiles, and it was …it was sad in a way
because there was a lot of memories and a lot of things within the school that ….that,
that were obviously not there any more then, because it was blew up. [01:43:26:17]
�Q: Were you anxious going back to school?
FIONA: [01:43:36:17] I wasn't really anxious going back to school no… now the bomb - I
lived half a mile away from the school so….. it was a 2000lb bomb was pretty, was pretty
drastic… our windows cracked and our dog, we went.. running outside, my daddy says
to get out cos the house was shaking so we all went running outside and when we went
outside we could hear the shrapnel - the whistles of the shrapnel overhead so my daddy
said get inside [01:44:03:11] cos he thought the house was going to fall down, so we all
had to run out, but when we went out there was just like missiles, we could hear things
whistling over our head and falling so we went back into the house. And I was very
anxious at the time, because my, my brother was over playing, playing pool in the local
recreation centre and from where we lived at that time I could see the smoke coming up
and I thought, I thought that my older brother had been blew up basically - I thought it
was the recreation centre …..so…that was a very anxious time - I remember being
completely distraught four about half an hour at least until….because then you didn't
have mobile phones so no-one could ring, no-one knew where it was, and no-one knew
what was happening. [01:44:41:07] so until I, until my brother was ok, then everything
was ok after that really – y’know everything else was irrelevant because….. as long as
everyone's ok, y'know material things can be replaced. [01:44:52:16]
END FILE
File No: ST00104 (File 2 of 4)
Start TC: 01:44:57:03
Q: Maybe you could talk about another incident?
FIONA: [01:45:04:07] The other incident was a little bit more serious, it involved the, the
murder of 3 … 3 young people and it was in the estate, quite close to where I lived, and I
heard the shots the night before, but I didn't realize what had happened - it sounded
like a bin lid closing so… didn't t take any heed but back in them days, if you heard any
kind of a bang, it, it - regardless of what age you were - you kind of went - was that or
was it this or was it that? You always… to me anyway, I was always on edge …… so I
heard these, these shots, these bangs but wasn't too sure about it, until the next day
that we found out that it, it was… 2 young girls and a young man had been murdered.
[01:45:48:04] And they'd been quite brutally shot… and what sticks out in my mind most
of all is that… when I was at my cousins house and we, we were looking and we seen…
the local residents were cleaning up the … the blood from the aftermath of it …. from
the young man that was shot. And it stands out pretty vivid in my mind that kids were
just playing around and there was just buckets full of soapy water and …. it was just…..
they were sweeping this … this blood away and I remember it just was something that …
it was like something you'd see on TV, on a film y'know you don't realize that things like
�that happen so close to home. So I remember that always has big significance in my
mind, and….. it’s just one of those memories that obviously will…. will never leave you.
[01:46:32:03] But I know that a lot of people at the same time would have had more…
more drastic encounters and there was lots of young girls - there was a young girl got
shot ….well a few young girls got shot, around my age as well, so for me growing up it
was always… I was… I was always anxious if I was out or if there, if there was a sound or
if you were out by yourself or walking home… on a dark night y'know ….nowadays you'd
be afraid of …. I don't know… different things… y'know but then, if I was walking from
my friends house by myself at night I was always quite anxious about cars driving past
and …because you just didn’t, you just didn't know … *01:47:10:05+
Q: Do you know the reason the young people were shot?][
FIONA: [01:47:13:21] Because of their religion ….that’s it….they were…. the two young
girls were only I think 16 & 17 so…..yeah it was just because of religion.
Q: Does that anxiety of then carry over to today?
FIONA: I don't know, the community I live in and …. just the country itself is…..it’s, it’s
obviously at …a lot…. at a better place than what it was years ago, but at the same time
there's always a level of uncertainty, y'know there's always .. y'know you can't be sure
that every things ok, or that things aren't going to happen or thing are going to happen
…. *01:48:32:04+ There’s always just that level of uncertainty I would say rather than
anxiousness, it’s just an uncertainty. *01:48:37:20+
Q: What do you think about the games and exercises we use, or that are used and
drama used to promote Peace building?
FIONA: [01:48:47:12] The games and exercises … when, when you have the young
people together …. to try and get young people to talk sometimes is ….is hard….. So the
drama workshops helps to - you bring them to, to a more relaxed place y'know back to
play and back to games and once they become comfortable in…. in the group and in the
scenario, and comfortable with myself…. drama…. the exercises allow… allow the young
people that outlet - to be able to …. to be able to express themselves creatively y'know,
so a lot of the times you may have … they may have things they've heard of, or they
want to say but are afraid to say but through drama you've a certain…. You’ve, you’ve,
well not a certain, but a bigger level of freedom, you're …. you can express yourself, you
can tell stories quite openly and [01:49:37:21] it’s usually within a safe environment,
where everyone has the same level of sharing and understanding, and even with the
group I worked with today, some of the stories were very personal and a lot of the … a
lot of the kids in the group or a lot of the young people in the group, got quite emotional
by them, y'know and they're all best friends - they're all … you can see …maybe not…
they're all very close friends and you could see that … they, they hadn't realized that
about each other before [01:50:06:12] because it hasn't been told before, and through
�drama…and, and these exercises, they have … they’re able to have this voice to tell
those things. [01:50:17:14]
Q: And is that important?
FIONA: Of course it is yeah.
Q: Why?
FIONA: [01:50:22:08] Why? Because a problem shared is a problem halved basically ,
y'know if … if they're able to tell their stories then they're able to … to have some
recognition and understanding of … of their stories …. and people then are able…… to,
to see their perspective on things…. so it’s about that …..it’s about that, that sharing the
memories and about remembering and people acknowledging the fact and
acknowledging each others stories and opinions and points of view, so if ….y’know it’s, a
lot …. a lot of people …. in the North have a….. y'know have, have a real grudge because
no- one… no-one wants to hear about it anymore and if you're able to tell your story – if
you're allowed to …. to have those memories then it’s… it becomes a little bit more
released, all that tension. [01:51:11:05]
Q: What role does music and dance play particularly with young people?
FIONA: [01:51:20:03] Music and dance is very current …. so ….y’know everyone has their
…. Their pop stars …… and fans of….of different, different people and stuff, so I think
music and dance is, is obviously a big thing that young people are interested in, so
sometimes straight drama as well, whenever you … whenever you can even merge them
together it brings… it makes it more current, so that it’s not just this is a memory that’s
in the past that we're acting out – it’s… you're bringing it in to the future or you're
bringing it in to the present time…and…..Dance is, dance I think in general is, is brilliant,
it just has a completely different outlet of its own, and…. and the song … y'know the
group I was working with today as well - the girls were just singing on, on their break
and ….. you know to have that…..it’s just another outlet (laugh) I don't know…..
[01:52:15:10]
Q: Using dance and rap - does that reach a different audience?
FIONA: [01:52:27:10] Yeah I think it does because …..Well using dance and rap makes it
…. makes the content more current and makes it more appealing to a young audience
and… it gets them more involved then in it as opposed to straight drama - whenever you
can integrate all those arts and, and make something more interesting, kids are
obviously going to be more interested in something that’s very current to them, and
something that they're interested in … [01:53:41:06] Well through rap, you know you
have your, your current artists that… that would deliver messages through, through
songs, through rap and … and that…y'know kind of resonates more with the kids, kids
remember words, remember lyrics of songs, remember words of raps and … and they
�do cling onto those …much more y'know those are things that can stay with them so,
buy putting it in that, in that format and delivering it to… to the young people as an
audience its going to stay with them more, they're going to take more away from it than
just a straight …..a straight drama piece [01:54:17:19]
END FILE
FILE NO:
ST00106 (File 3 of 4)
FIONA: Well like most other killings and murders in the North, it was to do with religion
and unfortunately for the very most part it was the innocent people that got affected by
that…. *01:54:51:13+
END FILE
File No:
Start TC:
ST00107 (file 4 of 4)
01:54:54:06
FIONA: [01:55:26:11] There was a school I was working with in Belfast, and part of the …
sectarian… realization was that sectarianism occurs when you try to imply your views on
other people - and everyone had accepted this, and everyone had said yes we, we're not
sectarian at all, and everyone had, had agreed through all the exercises and … and
groups and get in to this group if you think this, and into this group if you think that and everyone had agreed that everything was wrong until it came to nationality
[01:55:54:14] and whenever we started talking about nationality, and in the North of
course it’s very… you could be British, you could be Irish and you can be Northern Irish you've got a choice of 3 different nationalities that you can…. that you can choose from
essentially …. so this group of, of….. this one particular …child or young person in the
group had….was completely adamant that everybody …. everybody was the same
nationality as her, because they lived in this, in this country, and it was trying to get
that… and it turned out that the rest of the class actually were saying to her but you
can't - and she was completely unmoved by this because [01:56:35:11] she just didn't
realize that… she couldn’t, couldn't see that…. That she was trying to …. that this was
her implying her opinions on other people y'know I says you're entitled to be that
particular nationality … other people are entitled to this nationality, and y'know we are
entitled to be whatever, y’know whatever nationality you want to be, whatever you
think, y’know that… that’s the nature of where we live…and she just couldn't see past it
….just really couldn't see past how… anyone … could even consider being a different
nationality at all, and y'know was, was very, very .. no, well just tell them because that's
the way it should be because that’s, that’s what nationality we are….and…. it, it, this
debate it went on for so long and…. had the rest of the class actually were just …. and
they were all in the same area - they had to say, y’know to try and get her round and
that, but at the very very start she'd agreed that sectarianism was… y'know ok you don't
�imply your views on anybody else, everyone is entitled to they own opinion - until it
came to that. [01:57:434:17] and then no-one was … everyone was this and there was
no…. there was no let up from that it was this nationality and no other one in this
country. So there was other incidents like that do occur and it’s y'know I'm not to say
that this, I didn’t tell her she's wrong - no-one else told her …y'know she was wrong but
we were just trying to get her to realize that… y'know everyone has different views,
everyone has different… and it’s the same with … with racism and religion and things
like that, everyone has their own …their own opinions and that’s all to do with human
rights and people are entitled to have those. [01:58:04:22]
Q: And do you think young people are more open now to look at diversity in all areas?
[01:58:15:01]
FIONA: Oh I do think so because even in the same school there was lots of things up
about human rights and diversity and I mean it is – it’s very much integrated into
schools, I find that sports are being integrated more into schools, y'know some of the
catholic schools play rugby, some of the protestant schools play Gaelic, whereas
whenever I was growing up, it was, sports were very much segregated …. and now …. I
can see its more inclusive - even the likes of, of football teams that would be considered
predominately protestant or predominately catholic are now being … being integrated
by different, different ones in the community because …. some of the kids now are, are
thinking - now they're better than them ones so I'll go with them, y'know so they're
moving towards now the more competitive element of it as opposed to that’s a catholic
team, I'll play for that, or that’s a protestant team, I'll play for that. So in that sense, I do
feel that you know more people are, are coming round in that way y'know…..
[01:59:10:10] And in the schools that is implied as well obviously.
END FILE: 01:59:40:20
End of Interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Memory Project (<em>collection</em>)
Description
An account of the resource
"The Memory Project is an exciting, innovative arts programme that uses drama and theatre to deal with the past and build pathways for the future and to promote peace, reconciliation and mutual understanding in Northern Ireland and the southern border counties.
The project is run by Smashing Times Theatre Company in collaboration with Corrymeela Community / Irish Peace Centres and is funded through the EU’s European Regional Development fund through the PEACE III Programme for Peace and Reconciliation managed by the Special EU Programmes Body.
The project consists of a series of creative storytelling happenings, workshops and dramatic performances, along with a television documentary which will be made to record the process." (from the Smashing Times Theatre Company website)
In addition to the 12 filmed interviews (involving 15 interviewees), the project also produced an hour-long documentary entitled 'The Memory Project: Stories from the Shadows' which documented the work of the theatre company, over the course of two years, as it carried out the project.
Two theatre productions were also presented as part of The Memory Project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.smashingtimes.ie/page-2/page-2a/
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
12
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
11
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 10 November 2015)
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Permission Form Scanned
Non DC - Scan of permission form uploaded to archive.
Yes
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Fiona Bawn Thompson
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of interview with Fiona Bawn Thompson
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Dublin
Publisher
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
6
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Unititled Story</em>, by Fiona Bawn Thompson (<em>story transcript</em>)
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Smashing Times Theatre Company Ltd.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
25 January 2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
3455
Memory Project
Smashing Times