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Green and Blue Project
Pat Finn Interview Transcript
I’m from Galway. And I came to Clonakilty in May, 1968, and I had my full service in
Clonakilty apart from my temporary transfers.
My first trip to the border was in 1970, I went there in March... of 1970, to
Ballyconnell was on the border ‘twas in the Cavan/Monaghan Division, and... we
thought we’d be there for a couple of months, but as it happened... the Conroy
Commission... was set up prior to that and... the Conroy Commission was published
around that time, and the individuals... most of the fellahs who were on the border,
there was very few females at the border at that time, but we were all brought back
to our stations and for the first of April, because new conditions came into the
Garda... police force, Garda force, in 1970, so that was my first trip to the border.
Well we knew like ‘twas border patrols, but now I knew where Ballyconnell was on
the map, but ‘twas my first trip to the border, and the fact that there was a number
of sergeants there, we were in... all different accommodation... and I replaced some
of the members from Clonakilty, or Clonakilty District, so... I would have gone into
the same accommodation, as they left, so then we would have been on... long shifts
I think that time, prior to the Conroy Commission a long shift would be... maybe...
nine, nine hours maybe or well maybe even ten hours maybe, you wouldn’t have the
same now, when the Conroy Commission came in, this, ‘twas eight hour shifts as
such, but prior to that you could have been on longer shifts, and you would, there
was... in actual fact you got no, you got no pay for overtime in other words.
You could be called out, and there’d be no, there’d be no payment for the longer
hours, but as it happened we were... now, I got to know the... the number of people
that were in the sergeants and the Gardaí and as well, and I got to know the border
areas, now we were told it could be towards the border, it’s one good thing about...
all my trips to the border, is the fact that... each individual... that I met... they were
very helpful... because they knew like that we didn’t know the border areas, and
they also gave us... advice in relation to the people that we could mix with, and the
areas that we should not mix in.
I would have known a bit about it, but not to the extreme, the fact that you see,
sometimes you see people might talk, to talk to you, and they could be... asking you
questions, which, which now though I’m lucky enough that time we got advice, in
the winter when we arrived there, and now luckily enough again I didn’t meet
anybody... that... I got any awkward questions... from.
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�You had to be vigilant, is right, and ‘twas good experience as well, because... being
only in Clonakilty, and I was in Dublin for... a number of months, way back in 1969,
and outside of Clonakilty that was, Ballyconnell was my... other station, first station
the border, and... again it gave me an insight into what the border was about.
You see, the border was totally different to the... Clonakilty, and to Dublin, because
you met... different people... that could be... subversive in other words, and in
actual fact, crossing the border then, as well as everything else, now you went as far
as the border, but you didn’t cross the border, and the border was new to me,
‘cause I’d never been in Northern Ireland, prior to that... and Northern Ireland was,
to me, even though I had been in England, and I had met a lot of people from
different nationalities... but I did not know people from the north of Ireland, and...
also the fact of the criminal activities that were happening there, I would have
known nothing about that, and a fortnight was too short, so I didn’t learn an awful
lot at that particular time.
I went back up to Kinlough in 1971... Kinlough is in, is in north, is in north Leitrim,
it’s quite close to the Donegal border as well, and I, being single that time, being
single we were sent there for two months, and the one thing about Kinlough that I
remember clearly about Kinlough is the fact that there were a number of people
living in Kinlough Sub-District... and they had escaped from Long Kesh... so we got
to know then individually, and collectively as well, and we did... well we met them
different times, and we’d have stopped them at checkpoints, and we were aware of
who they were, and... that time, there was very few individuals carrying... firearms...
and they would, sometimes you would be accompanied by Army... and then you’d
be quite, you know... happy to stop individuals who you knew like were subversive
and they could be dangerous, maybe we didn’t know, but as it happened, they didn’t
create any difficulty for us, even though they did... tell us that they didn’t like being
stopped... and the fact that if they, you know that if they were stopped too often
that they could, you know they could get angry... but now we didn’t allow anybody
getting angry, because we said we were told to do our work, and our duty, and... it
was part of our work to... stop them, and search the cars, and search themselves if
they need be.
No, no there was nothing found that we, that I, at that particular time, now we did
do, we did some searches, but there was nothing found of... in relation to anything
that... subversives would need, or... would have hidden, so we don’t know whether
they had or not, and these fellas that we knew like that time, came across the
border, and they just weren’t, didn’t want to be part of Northern Ireland, because
they knew they were wanted in Northern Ireland, and... we... did have some...
knowledge, but they will, the [pause] RUC, police in the north knew they were living
there, but and we were... we were... kept notes in relation to the times we stopped
those people, and who they were, you know, just give them some, and would be
passed on, I think it was passed on, we passed it on to our sergeants and
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�inspectors, and the superintendent, and that would be passed on probably, I assume
it was passed on, I don’t know, but we didn’t do it ourselves.
Just would meet the RUC on the border, we’d have just general conversation with
them now... because again we wouldn’t have been, and see... you don’t talk to
people too long... when you don’t know them, and we just got to know them, and
we knew they were policemen, and they knew that we were from the south of
Ireland, and they didn’t, you know, we just give them the time of day, or maybe just
talked about a few things that were happening, maybe ‘twas... about football, which
they would be... you know, some of them would have known a good bit about
football and things like that as well, because... they wouldn’t know that much about
hurling, and on the border, so... and whatever was happening in the areas as well,
we’d just have a short discussion with them.
In actual fact, that was my first time using the... the car radios, we didn’t have car
radios in... in West Cork at that particular time, so got used to them again in the...
the two-way, because they had a radio... in every station in the border at that time,
and we were able to have communication when we were out, and with the station at
all times, which was a big help as well. It was, we thought it was at that time, but...
‘twas very small compared with communication nowadays.
Well what we did socially now, we... we travelled, you know to Kinlough, and just
before we’d start duty, maybe an hour or two before we’d start duty, and... now,
and again ‘twas eight hour shifts, we started maybe on a, ten o’clock on a maybe a
Monday night... and then we would finish maybe on the... next Saturday, and we’d
go to dances in, the Beach Hotel was one of the places we used to go to in... down
in Mullaghmore... and Mullaghmore in actual fact, that was one of the things, place
we covered actually during the summer, because of Lord Mountbatten.
I was there, there were different times when Mountbatten, the Lord have mercy on
him, Lord Mountbatten was, was coming there on holidays... and we would patrol
that area, and we got to know him, you know casually now, we didn’t, what I mean
casually, we had a... short conversation with him too, from time to time during the
summer that he was there, he was there for a couple of months in summer...
because he had a residence there, and... we seen him go out in his boat as well,
and... some of the people that he would be with as well, you know... again we... just
knew him... and we didn’t know very few, we knew some of the staff, but we didn’t
know them by name, and he was very nice towards everybody, you know, and...
very courteous to us as well, now he seemed a... fine, straight individual, and and...
very friendly.
We got back into normal routines again, and then that was my, you know, the 1971
was my, I spent two months at that time, and then eight months after I went back,
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�in 1973... and I spent any number of, I spent eight months at that time, ’72 – ’73...
and again we would have done the same thing, but again like I said, we could have
Bundoran maybe for, you know when we would have... time off, and we would go to
the local dances there, and as well as that, we would go to the beaches in...
Mullaghmore, or Bundoran, and we got to know... you see we were only temporary,
and we got to know the fellas from the different areas, that would have been nearer
the border and we got friendly with them as well too, so we created good friendship,
and again... where we were living where, it was quite good accommodation as well,
we got well fed, and we got on well with the sergeants that were there as well and
they were there permanent, there was three sergeants there at that particular time,
and I remember the sergeant in charge of... Kinlough, and he couldn’t have been
nicer to us, he gave us loads of advice, and... anything we wanted, and if we
wanted change of shifts... you know he would have been, he’d be very helpful that
way as well too.
We went across the border a few times now, we were gone to... different areas and
then the border, but now ‘twas, we went in our own time in actual fact, I went
dancing a few times across the border as well too, but not too often now, but we
would, we would just, have our identification with us, we didn’t, we drove our own
cars, and that was it, we didn’t, you know that... we were, we would be always
terribly... careful as to where we went, and the fact that we didn’t want people to
know that we were in the Garda force, because we were afraid just of the fact that if
they knew we were Gardaí, they mightn’t like it, some of the people that we’d have
met up there, so we just kept to ourselves that way.
There was no, there was no difficulty... no difficulty for our ID, sometimes we
weren’t even asked for ID, But we just made sure that we were, you know that in
case we were stopped and we did have ID with us.
I went to Blacklion then in 1975, I spent two months there actually, and Blacklion
was right on the border, and there was... an Army post as well right on the border,
and... again it was a smaller area, and the fact that even though, what I found
about Blacklion is the fact there was some members from... permanent there, and
they were very young, and they found it very boring, and that’s what I would have
seen, that’s one of the things disappointed me, is the fact there wasn’t enough
facilities for entertainment, or you know, off time, for individuals who were there
permanent, they would have been... get, I know some of the individuals that were
there in my time, they had a problem with alcohol, you know, again that was one of
the things that disappointed me, now I’m lucky enough again like that I was staying
in Manorhamilton, when I was in Blacklion, and we used to go for games of
handball, and different things like that as well with some of the lads, so...
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�Twas just part of the duties, and I, we didn’t worry about it, the fact that we were,
we became acclimatised to it, and we got good advice at all times as well too, and
we did what we were asked to do.
There was, it was across the border, on both sides, and they, there was... the Irish
Army were right on the, right on the border... and I’d say they found life boring as
well, because ‘twas very very boring, because they, they were doing all their duties
in the one spot.
No, nothing, nothing... nothing to be alarmed about, now the other thing, the other
station I went to, was Monaghan, I was there in nineteen... the 1980s, 1985-86, that
was now, Monaghan was different, because Monaghan was one of the... I suppose
areas where there was a lot of... subversives there... and we knew, we got to know
them, now and I got to know some of them as well too, and there was incidents
when, when I was in Monaghan... because there was... two subversives I can’t think
of their names now, but they were shot in the north of Ireland, and there was
funerals that we attended, and... Scotstown was one of the areas where there was
one of the, those people buried, and... the build up to the funerals was, now... that
was a bit scary... now not for ourselves, but you could feel, you could feel the
tension, the tension that was building up because they, the Garda force knew like
that there was a big funeral coming off, and they knew like that there’d be a lot of...
publicity and the fact there would be so many people, subversives and lots of other
people supporting them, now we, we had no worries about them, deep down, but
you could, again there was tension, but lucky enough I think on all the funerals they
were at, and McIlwaine was one of the individuals I can remember now, I just
thought of his name now, they were shot when I was there you know, and... you
could feel again all the pressure... and... the public themselves were waiting for
things to happen, now there was... fellahs in balaclavas, they would have fired shots
at the grave and things like that as well too, and then there was checkpoints going
to and from the, the funerals, you know that I was at, so again, that was one of the
times that you could feel the tension again, like I said... and also the fact... that
there was always a danger point or the possibility of a danger point.
Ah ‘twas tense in that you could feel a bit, each individual was, every individual was
going out there was... was tense because of the... possibility of something
happening, ‘twas more so the possibility, so... people were delighted when, I can tell
you when the, those... funerals were over, we felt sorry for the, you know the
people who were shot, but there was nothing we could do about it whatsoever,
because the fact that... they were doing probably something they shouldn’t have
been doing, and I mean sure they were in places, where they shouldn’t have been.
I was in Monaghan two different, three, two or three different occasions... matter of
fact I was in two stations in Monaghan, because I was in the old station, and the
5
�new station, because my first time up there was in the, in the old station, and then
by the time I got back again... so again we met, now made a lot of good friends
there, and that’s the other thing about Monaghan that I remember clearly, is the
first day I arrived there, I was told if I, that if I was taking a drink... there was some
of the pubs... that I should avoid... and also the fact that... the pubs that were safe
to go into, and that you wouldn’t be taunted or asked questions, and... that you
would feel... comfortable, which is very very important, and that was great advice
again.
Oh you could, safety... safety comes, is very very important to each and every one
of us, and the fact that you were... because people would get to know you... in a
short period of time if you were inside in a pub, and no matter where you went, that
you’re a stranger... so and then you would, maybe you went with a couple of more
colleagues, and then you like,
They’d recognise is right, and they could be, if you went to the wrong pub, you’d
never know what you... we were advised, got great advice.
I felt in actual fact there was more tension as well too, like Monaghan was... was
now the one station like I said, in relation to all the tension when I was in...
Kinlough, and Ballyconnell and Blacklion, there was less tension up, less tension
because I think the next factor was less fear... even though they... some time
afterwards there was an incident, there was serious, bomb, there was bombing in, in
Blacklion, but that wasn’t in my time now, but you could feel some of the, you know,
this again... the locals in Blacklion were lovely, but it was who was coming and going
through Blacklion was the danger. ‘Twas busy, oh ‘twas busy, yeah... so there was
full-time checkpoints...
It was at your discretion, now again you took, now there’d normally be some of the
local... Gardaí... that were permanently there, and you’ll be supporting them, more
so than anything else, and the same, any station we were in, and they weren’t,
We were lucky with accommodation now, each time I went to the border... in, in
Ballyconnell and Kinlough, we were lucky enough that we got... very good
accommodation, even though there was... now, one in Kinlough, on one occasion...
and one of the time we were there for a number of months, we moved into a house,
four of us moved into a house on our own, so we did our own cooking and our own,
you know, everything else, which was a small bit cheaper than... getting... fed from
landladies and things like that as well, and I can definitely say that... the landladies
looked after us well.
6
�The weather in the north of Ireland, I found now, not so much in Kinlough or... well
Blacklion yes, in some ways there was a bit, a lot colder, now ‘twas the month of
January and February that I was there in 1975... but in 1985 I went to...
Monaghan... and the weather was very very cold there, in actual fact ‘twas so cold
the first couple, I was only there a couple of days, I went back and I decided I’d
buy... pair of long johns, and... because again ‘twas five or six degrees colder than
here, and the checkpoints were longer then too, because we, at that time I was
armed... I was armed you see, now I was in the Technical Branch when I went to
Monaghan, and the fact that you were armed, you’re doing eight hour duties, and...
and if you’re there from ten o’clock at night ‘til six in the morning and it was very
very cold, and there was an occasion actually, on a number of occasions, I suppose
the weather was so cold that fellahs went to light a fire nearly on the side of the
road Yeah, keep themselves warm, that’s what we found now, that there was, other
than that the conditions we were in great accommodation in fairness.
Well we had to keep walking in matter of fact, because if you stayed standing you
would get, you’d be very very cold altogether, so what we’d do was we used to go in
pairs and... pace the road as much as we could, and everything was stopped that
particular time as well.
We also did escorts as well too from time to time from the Post Office, from Sligo,
when I was in Kinlough, now, the escorts of the mails, and we used to go to the
different village, you know we’d be in Sligo in the mornings, especially if there was
any morning they’d be carrying cash could be the first Tuesday... and then on the
Friday mornings, we did, you know we did that fairly regular from Kinlough, that’s
the only other thing I can remember now, there was...
I was married when I was in... Monaghan...We had, yeah, we had children in, two
children in 1985, ’86 but sometimes they would have stayed in Galway because my
wife’s from Galway as well, and they might have stayed in Galway for some period,
so then times they stayed in Clonakilty.
There was no mobile phones in other words, yeah you would’ve... kept contact with
the Garda station, the Garda station was, you know you could ring the Garda station
and... you’d make the time, that you’d be there.
Well yeah, maybe on occasions, yes... but then we were home on our rest days, we
were home for the... two or three days, in you know every week, so that was...
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�Ah ‘twas yeah, it was two hundred and fifty miles from Clonakilty to Monaghan, but
you, at that time when you’re younger you don’t take as much notice as you would,
The roads were bad, but lucky enough like, that there was only one occasion that I
had a mishap, a slight mishap, when I was travelling from, there was a lot of snow
on the road from... Kinlough to Galway... my car skidded and snowed very very
heavy snow, and I just... touched a wall, lucky enough I didn’t do... I just broke a
headlamp, that was all,
It was, but you knew, you see, you would be only away for a week, you know,
Come back is right, then you didn’t mind that, and you knew like that things were
going... you know, that you would saw [sic] them... regularly.
8
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
The Green and Blue Across the Thin Line (<em>collection</em>) [NC]
Description
An account of the resource
A collection of 39 stories that were compiled as part of a project with the aim: "To develop a storytelling project reflecting the cooperation and interaction between former members of Royal Ulster Constabulary and former members of An Garda Síochána along the border from the establishment of the two Police Forces to 2001." (From the Green and Blue website.)
Extracts from the 39 recorded interviews were published in book format in 2014. The associated Green and Blue website contains full transcripts for 24 of the interviews. The website also contains 18 interview audio files (as of 22 January 2016).
URL
Non DC - URL of Organisation / Project
http://www.green-and-blue.org/
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Diversity Challenges Board
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014
Stories Collected
Non DC - Number of stories recorded as part of the project.
39
Stories Deposited
Non DC - Number of stories deposited with Accounts of the Conflict.
18
Collection Permission Form
Non DC - Collection permission form signed and returned.
Yes (signed: 21 March 2015)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
Published book; and Web site
Language
A language of the resource
English
Delayed Access
Non DC - Yes/No on request for delayed access.
No
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
Police Services; Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland; 1920s to 2001
Publication
A book, article, monograph etc.
Author
Author of the publication
Patrick Finn
Date Type
Publication, Submission, Completion date etc.
Completion date 2014
Publication Title
Full title of publication, as it appears on item.
Transcript of audio interview.
Publication Status
Published, in Press, Unpublished, etc.
Published on-line
Number of Pages
8
Publisher Location
Place of publication: city / town
Website
Publisher
Diversity Challenges Board
Publication Type
Report, Book, Manual etc.
Transcript
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
<em>Untitled Story</em><span>, by Patrick Finn</span><span> </span><em>(story transcript)</em>
Description
An account of the resource
Transcript (PDF) of the audio recording of interview with Patrick Finn which was recorded as part of the Green and Blue – Across the Thin Line project.
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Green and Blue – Across the Thin Line project
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2014
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
PDF version of transcript
Language
A language of the resource
English
Availability Online
Non DC - Availabilty Status (deposited, delayed, external, cain)
deposited
Catalogue ID
Non DC - ID for the Catalogue entry that relates to this entry
2855
Diversity Challenges
Green and Blue